Martin McGuinness

Fitzy I don't think we disagree as much as you think we do! The IRA were thugs who used historical references to do what the hell they wanted to whoever they wanted.
But without unionist thugs terrorising catholics, it'ld have been harder to recruit! Of course, the real sickos would have still signed up, but they were largely the puppet masters.

It's easier to groom young people into terrorism if they're being victimised by the other side. The IRA wasn't operating in a vacume. This lesson seems to have been forgotton now as we practically hand young muslims into the paws of islamic groomers.

Yes - thugs on both sides. But where it all started - I don't think that's so clear.

No matter where in the world, NI, SA and the Middle East, it is men-and women-of violence who perpetuate this hatred. Why on earth would anyone in their right mind think it reasonable or justified to terrorise folks whether by bombs or general thuggery in the community?
Long may the peace reign in NI now no matter how it was achieved. May it happen soon in the Middle East and other troubled areas of the world too.

With the understandable exception of Lord Tebbit – a victim, with his wife, of IRA violence – dozens of politicians lined up yesterday to pay tribute to McGuinness’s role in forging a new beginning for Northern Ireland. But it is less easy for the relatives of those killed and maimed to forget the carnage and the grief the IRA caused. When McGuinness reached the apogee of his recantation by dining with the Queen at Windsor castle a few years ago, Victor Barker, whose 12-year-old son James was killed by the 1998 Omagh bomb, commented: “A terrorist in white tie and tails is still a terrorist.” There are many fathers, mothers, children and siblings who feel just as strongly.
But McGuinness was never prosecuted in the UK. Only once was he convicted and jailed and that was in the Republic of Ireland in 1973 when he was arrested near a car containing 250 pounds of explosives and nearly 5,000 rounds of ammunition. In court, he unequivocally declared his membership of the Provisional IRA. Undoubtedly he ordered bomb attacks and murders.
We can only hope that the good work of the Peace Process survives the strong feelings that MM's death will arouse but no way can he be held up as an Irish martyr.

Agreed merlotgran. My DH served 5 tours in NI. It turned me grey and in to a chain smoker, imagine what it did to him!

MawBroon one of the problems is that there are so many victims and many families in Ireland can site past generations where people have been tortured, injured or killed by people who believed the cause they were fighting for. In moving forward and asking others to do the same McGuiness wasn't asking to be forgiven for his past actions, anymore than he was forgiving the violence done to his community, he was simply saying that at some point it had to stop. He wasn't a martyr simply a man of vision who looked to the future.
LadyGracie all the troops who served in NI were treated terribly but it wasn't entirely the fault of the IRA. The British government who put them in such an untenable position and refused to look at peaceful solutions should take responsibility.

Amazing how some are happy to put blame on the British Government ( for everything in life)
I expect that McGuiness will be canonised any day now.

Not for a moment do I absolve British governments of their share of responsibility. It's far too simple however to put the blame in one place. I do hope the death of MM doesn't lead to further blAme and polarisation.
I am content the the agreement during the peace process that terrorists could escape prosecution is extended to former service personnel. These once young men lived with the horrors they experienced. If we are letting go and moving on, let that apply to all.

If it was some other organisation that sent troops to NI do tell me who.

A man of vision
He certainly had enough vision to be able to escape justice, unlike others. Was it part of his strategy for peace?

God will judge (if there is a God).

I agree, Iam64.

I can only speak as someone who served in the army at the grand old age of 18 in Northern Ireland for about 5 years in total from 1974.

I will not weep one tear for this man - not one.

I saw mans inhumanity to man up close and personal .

I suspect America's dwindling support of the IRA had a lot to do with McGuinness's change of direction. He knew a hiding to nothing when he saw one.

It is attitudes similar to some of those posted on this thread that has led to a continuing conflict that has its roots not in the actions of the Black and Tans, not in the Easter Rising, not even in the Irish Famines but further back in time still, with Cromwell and before that the continuing efforts of the English to suppress any opposition in any neighbouring country. Whatever McGuiness did he moved on, why I don't know and I don't think many people do, but the bitterness and rancour will not bring back those who died and may lead to more conflict in the future. The Peace agreement has lasted almost 20 years, the conflict is over 500 years old. Let us hope peace holds and intransigent attitudes do not hold sway.

trisher, I have a very good reason to hope peace holds out in NI as I have two DGS's who grew up there for seven years and spend at least three holidays a year with their father in what used to be termed, 'Bandit Country.'

Criticising anyone who doesn't share your opinions is pointless. People have every right to comment on what happened during the troubles because they HAPPENED.

I have an opinion which doesn't mean there's a problem with my attitude

Firstly I'm with Norman Tebbit. Secondly I fail to see why MM's death was given such huge media coverage and why after that first quote by NT, the only quotes used were those that praised MM. I simply do not believe that the BBC and Other news media only received plaudits. Just looking at this thread, I think opinions are pretty much divided 50/50 with some caveats. I have strong Irish connections and lived through the London bombings of the early 70s. The first major bomb (Whitehall) nearly blew all our office windows out and too many friends were involved for me to feel sorry for MM. A good friend (a doctor) was on the scene when the bomb disposal officer was blown to bits on Kensington Church Street. That brave man left a wife and two children. Forgive MM? Sorry no.

So if it isn't intransigent attitudes merlotgran what do you attribute the 500 years of conflict to? It doesn't help matters when people constantly condemn one area or group and won't look at the wider picture.
I don't think anyone has suggested "forgiving" MM Granarchist simply moving on and finding a new path that doesn't condemn the next generation to the same conflict.

* Fitzy 54 " lets just all believe the british army are all saints .....we KNOW they aren't there are bad soldiers just the same as there were bad on BOTH sides of the divide.IF the UK hadn't sent in tanks and guns it may well never have reached the stage it did .Why on earth do people believe the british state is incapable of doing bad things...maybe read about the massacres in India ....and Winston Churchills involvement ...or Churchill putting tanks on the streets of Glasgow after locking Scottish regiments in their barracks.That was a peacful demonstration too ...we were lucky they only arrested people and didn't shoot them.My granny was at that demo so I had it first hand .

If they had an amnesty for murderers in Northern Ireland why did they not have one for soldiers who may have been following orders or believed that they were killing someone to protect the wider public?

I asked this question Jalima on another thread, but didn't get very far with it!!!! I believe that any amnesty should have covered ALL sections of this conflict. I read today that a soldier involved in the troubles is in fact being pursued in the courts for an incident that occurred forty years ago! He is now 75 years old. Other military personnel are also being considered for prosecution. Presumably they were acting under orders therefore if anyone should be prosecuted surely it should be those who issued the order or the MOD, not individual soldiers. The amnesty should be for all, not just for terrorist groups.

Paddyann, Churchill sent armed troupes to South Wales in the 1911 miners strike , he was hated in South Wales, so yes British governments are capable of bad things

All governments are capable of bad things, it's not just peculiar to the British Government.

Just look at Syria

Perhaps because Jal and nn as a civilised society we hold our soldiers to higher standards than the ordinary citizen. But yes if they were acting under orders and the train of command can be traced everyone involved should be considered for prosecution. Undoubtedly an atmosphere of permitted violence was rife at the time and individuals and those in authority should take responsibility for what. happened.
British governments are also good at covering things up and hiding the things they have done.