Should I vote Labour

It was leaked for the purpose of testing the waters. This gives them time to add and delete , depending on public reaction.

If what is happening in your own country seems unfair and unequal, then it is common sense to look at how others are managing their society, particularly if it is a more equal society with a strong welfare system and strong economy.

But whitewave, you are assuming citizens in all countries think the same. Would le Penn be as popular here as in France, would we want what America has? No matter the country the government was voted in by the people.

Our County has a Music Service. They employ peripatetic music teachers and loan instruments. I don't think lessons have to be paid for but I will check. They were certainly free when my children were at school, but that was 30 years ago.
As far as I remember there were peripatetic music teachers but instruments had to be hired/bought and were not loaned free of charge.

Of course, instruments are not strictly necessary to make music happen, the voice can be a wonderful instrument too.

Instruments and music lessons had to be paid for when DC were at school. GD is having violin lessons at school and they are charged at the going rate.

annie my reply relating to Germany's mixed economy was to balance the suggestion that Corbyn is a communist. Of course we know that is a silly suggestion, but I was trying to get a bit of perspective on the subject and bring the debate back to a bit of sense.

I am sure that many people in the U.K. Would opt for a German economy with a strong welfare system, good industrial relationship and a mixed economy if it was presented to them properly and not with the sort of hysteria and hyperbole we see in the tax dodging owned tabloid press.

Err ... when did Norway join the EU Annie? I didn't actually refer to the EU and wasn't discussing it. My comment was prompted more by people's rather confused view of communism.

Yes, I think the children at DGD's school were given 'taster lessons' on violins etc but now, at junior level, lessons have to be paid for and instruments provided by the parents although free lessons and loan of instruments can be applied for under certain circumstances.

"But whitewave, you are assuming citizens in all countries think the same. Would le Penn be as popular here as in France, would we want what America has? No matter the country the government was voted in by the people."

I find your view of the differences a little worrying Annie. All human beings do think in much the same way and are influenced by circumstances in much the same way. The French and Americans are not a different species nor are those of other countries although their history may be at a different point to ours.

This idea of the DM styling of "The People" worries me too. In this country very few of "The People" actually ever vote for government. The largest number do not vote at all but we don't say the will of "The People" is that we have no government. At the very least it would be more honest to say "a majority" and even more honest to say "a small majority of those voters who voted". Obviously that would not make a happy little media headline but it would be much, much honest.

Yes Whitewave apprentices should be "the life blood" of industry but the whole system needs a giant overhaul.

We have an apprentice that we took when he was 19. We pay £2,500 per year for his "training fees" (in other words we are lining the pockets of a training provider who provides no training at all) he attended college for 1 day a week in his first year only. We provide all of his training and a guy comes in a couple of times a year and ticks boxes to say WE have trained him to do X,Y and Z. (Nice little earner £2,500 a year eh?) We now have to pay him the full living wage £7.50 per hour plus employers NI etc. JC proposes that this should be £10 per hour plus employers NI.

My point is that this will do nothing at all to encourage employers to take apprentices. I have no doubt whatsoever that once he qualifies he will be off like a shot (Nissan is the place to be). What will he have gained from our investment of £100,000 ? Nothing whatsoever.

Should have said investment of almost £100,000.

Whitewave, you think the majority in the uk are not capable of thinking for themselves and believe everything the press prints ?

More power to unions will unnerve many and from experience not what is said in the press. Whilst I support unions I dread the thought of McClusky having more power

This manifesto is too much of 'one day in the future ' people want help now .

For me the leak of the manifesto was no mistake and shame on them,

Gilly, we are not taking on more apprentices for the reasons you stated, and now Corbyn plans to increase employers NIC contributions but not employees.

There are only two firms in this area who take on apprentices, ours and one other, they too have decided not to take on new apprentices, so anyone hoping for an apprenticeship in building have two choices, try firms fifty miles away and if lucky find digs they can afford or forget building and try the garlic or fishing tackle factory for a job.

We might as well assume that if JC's LP did get into power the country would effectively be run by Unite.

*annie& I must admit that I find some of your views on (for example) private education and other countries a bit baffling.

How do you think that the Labour Party should tackle issues such as inequality and under-investment in public services?

annie I would be very happy if that were true, but there is far too much evidence to suggest otherwise regarding the press and influence. We now have not only to deal with the tax dodging press in this country but social media is being infested by the likes of Mercer, Bannon and other shadowy figures. Do you think that they would invest such a huge amount of wealth if they didn't think they would be getting a return for their money?

It seems weird talking to you like this as these are the sort of arguments you used to put.

I can't comment on the manifesto leak, but if it means that a better manifesto is produced as a result of feedback then I am completely relaxed about it.

gillo I think that your questions about the apprenticeship scheme should be addressed to the Tories as they have had plenty of time to listen to business concerns and sort it out.

Yes Whitewave, and it's weird for me, but the hysteria here surrounding Corbyn is just so land of Oz . Good grief, I only gave an opinion on a chat show and was told to vote Tory .

I attend a couple of SB forums and a Manufacturing forum too. We have discussed the subject of apprentices many times and the general feeling is that people will let their existing apprentices finish and then that will be the end. They will take no more, which is such a shame.

I would also like to see a scheme where the apprentice has to stay with the sponsoring company for so long after qualifying or else they have to pay a portion of their training fees back.

gilly then why aren't you feeding this back to the government? Or perhaps you are and they aren't acting on the knowledge?

annie well that's as may be, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. In your gut you know what's right. Yes, you are alarmed at Corbyn, yes you can see history repeating itself with Foot, Kinnock etc, and you are worried that the Labour Party will go down the pan. Well it might, but your fundamental beliefs won't change will they? How can they unless you've had a lobotomy?

So attacking a leader who can only ever be temporary, and seemingly losing sight of your values and the message that's needed can't possibly help. Basics woman, basics meant in the kindest way possible

I actually don't think there is a party in the country (except, perhaps, UKIP as no one knows what they think on anything but immigration) which would not advocate good apprenticeships but the Conservatives decided they could not get on with providing them but must, first, destroy the FE sector and insist they are provided by private companies. Because of their extreme views our young people have not been able to access very many good quality apprenticeships although they do exist in small numbers.

I have spoken to the FSB (the SME's voice in parliament) several times about this Whitewave .

I would like to see a scheme set up to encourage small businesses to take an apprentice (a real one mind you not those fakes like apprentice filing clerks that I have seen advertised).

The apprentice should receive a fair wage. There should be no employers NI.

I would get rid of the apprentice brokers (otherwise known as training providers, who provide no training)

Then either the government should pay all college fees
or
the apprentice takes out an apprentice loan to cover these fees and it is paid back when they qualify and earn over a certain amount.

or
the sponsor business pays the fees but the apprentice agrees to stay in the sponsor company for X years after qualifying.

The only personal experience of apprenticeship schemes that I have was an interview with a private provider to be what you gillybob call an apprenticeship broker. When I understood what was going on, I turned down the second interview. It was a sort of commission only job to find apprentices for apprenticeships which didn't really exist. Afterwards, I was horrified to find out that this company (and others like it) were paid significant amounts of government money as upfront payments. Many of them went bankrupt before making any sort of profit.

After being made redundant by the NHS, my sister worked for a while as an NVQ assessor for careworkers on apprenticeship schemes. She was also paid by results and had targets, so was encouraged to sign off apprentices, who would never have been employed by the NHS.

The whole thing as it exists at the moment seems to be a scam.

By the way, I also think that 16+ education/training is in urgent need of reform and it's good to hear from somebody involved in it.

Germany really is a country we could look to for reform (yes, Germans really are just like us), because their vocational training is excellent and SMEs are the backbone of their economy.