Brexit - the end of the beginning - the negotiations begin

Davies
the Welsh Brexiteer MP
or Davis?

I've read the original article and it's nothing to do with punishment. Juncker repeated what he's been saying all along. Apparently May arranged the dinner at short notice. She wanted Juncker to stop being so transparent by publishing all negotiations. May also wanted Juncker to support her, as there was a general election coming up and she suggested that it would be better if she wins a large majority.

The summary of the FAZ's article by Jeremy Cliffe is accurate. The article was given to the FAZ by one of Juncker's aids and would appear to have been offcially sanctioned. The EU Commission often uses the newspaper to report official business. It's one of Germany's biggest circulation newspapers and is considered to be centre-right.

I think the FAZ article has to be taken with a pinch of salt. Its been put about with an eye on the French election that the French don't get the idea that Frexit will be an easy ride.
I have not heard that any Brits have rushed to take up a second nationality. Looking back I remember when we moved in this house 30 years ago it was on a building site and then I had an Englishman digging over the 'garden' and
laying down lawn seed. DH made a joke about it for years.

Mrs May made a mistake by making it a bargaining point
Can she speak French or German? I can imagine if she can't then that will be a disadvantage.

WW where can I find TMs position on EU nationals? I've not been able to find anything as detailed as you describe.
Certainly this is one she ought to settle quickly now.

This is the FT's take on the meeting:

Number 10 looks to steer Brexit talks in Juncker-Barnier meeting

May seeks low-key negotiation while EU wants more transparent approach

Theresa May began to try and exert a personal grip on Brexit negotiations when she met Michel Barnier, the chief EU negotiator, for the first time on Wednesday night at a dinner in Downing Street.

The dinner, which was also attended by European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker and other senior Brexit negotiators, was a sign of the prime minister’s intention to steer the talks that will define her premiership if she wins the general election on June 8.

Britain is pressing for low-key technical talks, with the details of negotiations kept under wraps, while the EU is looking for a more transparent approach.

Mrs May’s preferred format would put the emphasis on discussions among officials, giving a less prominent public role to senior politicians, including most notably David Davis, the Brexit secretary.

Mr Davis is trusted by Mrs May — he was among the ministers briefed in advance about the snap election — and attended Wednesday’s dinner, but his statements and activities have been closely scrutinised for signals about the government’s Brexit aims.

Olly Robbins, a highly regarded civil servant and Mrs May’s lead “sherpa”, will play a key role in the negotiations, as will Nick Timothy, her co-chief of staff, who is drafting the Conservative manifesto.

But mixed signals over the make-up of Britain’s negotiating team have caused confusion in Brussels.

“It is very strange,” said one senior diplomat for the remaining 27 EU member states (EU-27). “We need a politician on the other side.”

British officials said that details of the negotiating strategy and team were still being decided.

As the EU’s chief negotiator, Mr Barnier, a former French foreign minister and two-time European commissioner, was expected to engage principally with Mr Davis in formal negotiations. The two had tentatively scheduled a meeting, soon after last Saturday’s summit of EU-27 leaders, for “talks on talks” that would set the format and tempo of discussions over coming months.

However, that meeting was cancelled after Mrs May last week called a snap general election and she invited Mr Juncker to Downing Street instead.

Mr Juncker brought Mr Barnier, Sabine Weyand, the EU’s deputy negotiator, and Martin Selmayr, his chief of staff. Mr Selmayr, a powerful operator in Brussels, was expected to meet Mr Timothy, his influential counterpart in Downing Street, for the first time at the dinner.

Number 10 said after the dinner that Mrs May and Mr Juncker had “a very constructive meeting”.

“Following the UK’s letter of notification under Article 50, she reiterated the UK’s commitment to achieving a deep and special partnership with the European Union,” a spokesman said.

In recent weeks, Mr Robbins has stressed to other European diplomats that Mrs May wants to depoliticise the preparations for Brexit as much as possible, and keep the details of discussions quiet.

This contrasts with the commission’s plans for a more transparent and ordered process, where all of its main negotiating position papers would be public. Mr Barnier is advocating for week-long “negotiating rounds” taking place around once a month, which would potentially involve Mr Davis and Mr Barnier giving press conferences. The “heavy lifting” on technical matters would be left to Mr Robbins and Ms Weyand.

I found it tagged onto an article about the Downing Street dinner but I cannot remember where - been reading and watching news channels while cooking for us and a guest!

Margaret The article has nothing in it that Juncker hasn't been saying all along, before any mention of Frexit.

The article is about transparency. May doesn't want the negotiations to be made public.

In the FAZ article, there's a mention of EU nationals. May said that she wanted an agreement by the end of June. Juncker said the time scale was impossible, as there would have to be consultation and agreement with all 27 states, especially over healthcare arrangements.

Juncker and Barnier both speak fluent English, so I would imagine the language of the dinner was English.

MargaretX good point, Juncker et al will be very worried about the French election; I expect Macron will win with a substantial majority but even he has said that he wants substantial reform of the EU.

No, it's not a good point. Juncker has said what he's been saying all along.

May is trying to do deals in private.

MargaretX I think the wind has been put up them since Brexit and of course they will be keeping a close eye on what the trends are in other countries of the EU.

We hear such a lot about what Merkel thinks, what Germany says, but what about all the other member states?

WW:
DD: all a bit confusing. I'm reading articles that say the EU are ready to sign off on an agreement over nationals right now.

That's half the problem Fitzy there are facts, guesswork, wild speculation, leaks of facts,leaks of made up things, it wouldn't be wise to believe most of it.
Then there are bluffs and double bluffs. Both sides need a good deal.

Fitzy

The problem is the EU are playing the same card over 'EU Nationals/Reciprocal Rights', there are more than one party at fault.

I understand the argument the UK could 'unilaterally' allow EU Nationals a right to reside , but equally so could the EU Commission. There has been Nothing/Nada/zilch/ coming from Brussels to give any indication they want to stop using Citizens as pawns in their negotiations, yet some only make that accusation against Theresa May.

EU Nationals being those living outside of their own country from the ' 28 Nations ' in the EU and Theresa May has a duty to protect the rights of UK Citizens living in the other ' 27 Nations ' when we Leave.

Theresa May has stated this:-

"Rights for EU nationals in Britain, and British nationals in the EU: we want to guarantee these rights as early as we can. We have told other EU leaders that we can offer EU nationals here this certainty, as long as this is reciprocated for British citizens in EU countries.".

There were numerous amounts of coverage reporting how Angela Merkel and Donald Tusk had 'refused' to agree to any 'Reciprocal Rights of EU Nationals' UNTIL ARTICLE 50 had been triggered. Now it has been triggered there is still a dragging of feet over Reciprocal Rights it would appear.

At least Theresa May had tried months ago to obtain EU Nationals Reciprocal Rights but the EU Commission refused. For the sake of those UK Nationals in the other 27 Nations she has a duty towards them and doing ' what it takes ' to ensure their protection , her job is to protect UK Citizens as Prime Minister.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-angela-merkel-eu-migrants-deal-a7445261.html

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38148527

" The status of UK and EU expats after Brexit can be resolved only once formal negotiations have started, the European Council president has said.". (Tusk)

Sounds about right Roses.

I find May's attitude very embarrassing. She has said the FAZ article is just Brussel's gossip and she did not recognise it, even though the person who gave it was speaking for Juncker.
Is she actually calling Juncker a liar?

POGS this more recent link suggests the EU are ready to go on this issue
www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/29/brexit-rights-of-eu-nationals-eu27
DJ. - May also said the Commission have announced that the talks over dinner were contsructive! I've not looked into that but assume she isn't lying. I find it all rather confusing. Someone is playing games.
p.s. Note the Guardian link!

May knew that there could be no agreements about anything until Article 50 had been presented to the rest of the EU.
Now we know that the EU want all EU nationals, including those UK ones in the EU, to have the same rights they have now, including the right to have right to remain after living in the other country for five years, but May wants to treat EU nationals like any other immigrants.
So much for reciprocity.

" Theresa May has dismissed as "Brussels gossip" an account of a dinner with EC President Jean-Claude Juncker, published in a German newspaper.

The pair reportedly clashed over Mrs May's desire to make Brexit "a success" and whether the issue of protecting the rights of expat UK and EU nationals could be agreed as early as June."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39770328

It could asked durhamjen if you are accusing Theresa May of being a liar!

Again the article in the German Paper was not based on factual evidence, some people don't require factual evidence it appears. Only one German Newspaper reported this unproven material and other media outlets do what they do best 'cover' other media outlets gossip .

It could a true analysis, it could be a load of old rubbish. One thing for sure those who have a dislike of Theresa May , The Tories will thrive on anything reported against her. That is fine but only if you can prove the facts.

durhamjen

" even though the person who gave it was speaking for Juncker."

If it was released with Junckers approval/on his behalf as you state then I'm sorry but it would further show the shabby way he conducts himself. Is that a fact by the way?

This is an excellent article by Paul Mason.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/01/peoples-brexit-plan-replace-mays-flawed-strateg-juncker-leak-june-alternate

"British perceptions of the meal have not been leaked in the same level of detail but there's no doubt the European briefings will be seen in the UK as provocative - and designed to stir up fears among British voters about what Brexit is going to mean."

From the BBC article.
Theresa May wants to keep the talks secret. The EU doesn't.
If the EU gives its side of it, she cannot be surprised.

I wouldn't go as far as to call it excellent DJ! Plenty of spin, and he seems to have neglected to cover future immigration terms with the EU - pretty critical to the market access "red line".
An interesting take though.

Ah well, Fitzy, you rarely agree with me anyway, so I wouldn't expect you to think it's excellent. I do.