London.....Incidents at London Bridge, Borough Market and Vauxhall.

The law says the police can use reasonable force. This is what they did last night - brilliant split second decisions from highly train police. But they are not soldiers and we do not have a war on our streets. We have a few aberrant men who are choosing to attack our society and police who are dealing with them. I can think of nothing more likely to turn this into a war on our streets than a 'shoot to kill' policy.

Yes Bluebell, if my son committed a murder I would feel and be guilty by association and expect to be treated accordingly. I would feel that I had failed to raise a decent human being.

harrigran what utter tosh

MaizieD ’It's as though our progress towards civilization is being completely wiped out’......I do hope you're not suggesting that the murdering bastards in Manchester and London are civilised?

Juggernaut may have left the thread but I thought I had better clarify for anyone else who might be lacking comprehension skills.

I wasn't referring to the 'murdering bastards'; we all know that they're not civilised. I was referring to people in our own supposedly 'civilised' society who would be prepared to disregard the rule of law and take their revenge on people, who might be completely innocent, just because they're 'on a list'.

I hope you really wouldn't feel that way harrigran but if you did, would being hounded and eggs thrown at your windows ( and worse) be justified?
Remember the 'paedo' rent a mobs? Attacking the house of a paedotrician ( apologies if spelling is wrong) and even if they had attacked a paedophile in his house would that have been right?
Families who have no knowledge ( I stress that point) of what their teenage or adult children are up to deserve our sympathy.

But harrigran's son would have been shot and killed, so that would be okay. No need for a name on a list.

Well said Roses we cannot have guilt by association. Who was it who said "I am not my brother's keeper"? Our civilised society is better than a vigilante law of the jungle.

This latest attack is in my neck of the woods, so we have been discussing it a lot. Most feel that these attacks, though scary for a few weeks, do not make a difference in the long run to the wider society. Think about the blitz when bombs were raining down nightly and the death toll
was huge. It didn't break people's resolve or change their culture . These attacks, terrible though they are, and life changing to those involved, will not change us.

inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/london-bridge-borough-market-armed-police-response-speed-eight-minutes/

Since May started in the Home Office, the number of armed police has been cut by 1337.

Again, does the Home Secretary alone decide on cut backs in the police force?

Why the concern regarding a person being named wrongly as a possible terrorist ? We are more than happy to name a man accused of rape before he is tried.

inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/seven-year-old-girl-target-of-anti-muslim-abuse/

Possibly because of things like this. We should be pulling together, not scapegoating.

This was after Manchester.

Lillie and suzied, may I just say that I am very impressed by your "let's just get on with life" attitude. Of course you're right, and we can't, and mustn't, change our lives just in case we get in the way of any further awful attacks, but you are in or around London,and I am not, and I found myself worrying about the fact that we are due to spend a night there on our way on holiday. Now I will stop worrying about it; if you are brave enough to carry on as normal, so am I! More power to your elbows, and let's ignore the b*****s!

You are unbelievable ! We are in the grip of systematic Islamist terrorists. Muslims have come out to publicity disassociate themselves from those that carry out their missions. The terrorists aims are to divide us and this sort of talk does just that. Everyone's working together to fight these cowards. . We stand together for justice and peace, not start another debate on someone stupid who blames people because of their religion. We need to be a lot harder on the cowards that think it ok to murder because only then can they please Allah, let no Muslims bury them when killed, so they know they won't get their wish.

Wheniwasyourage, it's normal for you to feel apprehensive about passing through London on your way on holiday, especially as you don't live or work on the capital. Please don't let these events spoil your preparations for your holiday, I hate to use the phrase that you're more likely to be run over by a bus, but it's true. The chances of your being caught up in anything are tiny, tiny.

I live in London and have taught 16-19 year olds of all ethnic groups and faiths here all my adult life. Tonight, I received this message on FB from a former student, a beautiful, bright British-born girl of Sudanese parentage, an Oxford graduate and wonderful human being who is also Muslim and wears a headscarf. I quote directly her cry of anguish and despair:
"I am still reeling and finding it difficult to gather my thoughts. I am furious. Furious that these monsters dare to attack my beloved city--indeed any other--in the name of my beloved faith. I am powerless to convince others that they are nothing to me, my family, my community, for whom Islam has only served to enhance their humanity. I despise them as much as anyone, if not more. It's getting harder to ask others not to despise us or our beautiful religion. All i can do is be an honest, law-abiding, hardworking contributor to society, with a big smile and a good heart, and hope , in a modest, personal way, to make a more lasting impression"

That brought tears to my eyes, Rinouchka. What a wonderful human being, as you say.

Poor girl, how sad, I want to hug her and tell her she is valued

Luckylegs no one demanded that catholics, or even Irish catholics have (to)come out to publicity disassociate themselves from those that carry out their missions. when the IRA were bombing Britain, why should Muslims have to do so? There are 3 million muslims in Britain it is ludicrous not to realise that these terrorists represent a vanishingly small proportion of that community.

This is a post copied from a Mumsnet thread. I think it provides food for thought.

I'm also posting a link to a Sky News interview. Also food for thought

Start Quote:
Paul Waugh@paulwaugh
Iain Duncan Smith just admitted on @BBCRadio4 that Tory Govt's shift from Labour's control orders to TPIMs 'watered down' terror effort

Beth Rigby‏@BethRigby (SkyNews)
On police cuts, Former No 10 insider told me it had had knock on effect for neighbourhood policing/tackling extremism in communities

Difficult Questions.

David Allen Green‏@davidallengreen
1. There has been a suggestion that what is needed are new laws against terrorism.
2. Since 2000, there have been many laws about terrorism.
3. Terrorism Act 2000
Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001
Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005
Terrorism Act 2006
4. Counter-Terrorism Act 2008
Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act 2011
Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015
5. Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act 2014
Investigatory Powers Act 2016
Among others.
6. There have also been about 100 statutory instruments since 2000 with "Terrorism" in title alone:
www.legislation.gov.uk/secondary?title=Terrorism&page=2
7. Contained in this legislation are some of the widest, most general provisions in the history of criminal and also surveillance law.
8. Without exaggeration: it is difficult to imagine what more laws about terrorism there could be.
9. Since 2000, the UK has averaged a new terrorism statue every two years.
10. So many terrorism statutes since 2000 government has run out of names for them: Terrorism Act, Anti-Terrorism Act, Counter-Terrorism Act
11. It is easy for a politician do demand "tough" new laws, "crack-downs", "enough is enough", "something must be done"...
12. But government, and parliament, is running out of ways of legislating against terrorism. Every possible way seems to have been done.
13. Whatever the best response to terrorism, making yet more laws will not be the solution.
/ends.

Faisal Islam‏@faisalislam
Corbyn: "I will take whatever action incl full authority for police to use whatever force necessary to protect & save life as they did yday"
Corbyn: "you cannot protect public on the cheap, police & Sec services must get resources they need, not 20k cuts..."
Corbyn criticises PM over police cuts: "Theresa May was warned by the Police Federation but she accused them of 'crying wolf'"
Corbyn says "the election must go ahead" - but no senior politician suggested it should not, there was a petition though
Corbyn: heroism of Met police and British Transport Police should be commended...
Corbyn criticises President @realDonaldTrump reaction to London attacks for not having "sense or grace" re his attack on @MayorofLondon

This week's election campaigning is going to get aggressive.

Christopher Meyer‏@SirSocks (Former UK Ambassador to US)
World leaders call for unity. Trump tweets the complete opposite.
www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/06/04/world-leaders-call-for-unity-after-london-attack-trump-tweets-the-complete-opposite/?utm_term=.6da45af5b390
Let me be diplomatic. Trump makes me puke.

James Fallows‏@JamesFallows
From the former UK ambassador to US.
Not standard for diplo-speak."

End quote.

New quote:

twitter.com/James4Labour/status/871366015032184832

This tweet has a video of an interview from the Former Senior Chief Investigating Officer of the Met Police, Peter Kirkham with SkyNews

He does not mince his words. Called the government 'lying' more than once.

End quote

I must credit RedToothBrush with these two posts and would add that it's really worth dipping into these Wesministenders threads from time to time. Lots of well informed and interesting discussion.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/a2945002-Westministenders-Election-Mayhem

Presumably, Redtoothbrush is a left wing group/ person/blogger ?

The interview with Peter Kirkham was on Sky News this morning. I urge everyone to listen to it and make their own decisions as to it's content.

So that's all you pick up from that list?

Paul Waugh is from Huffpost.
David Allen Green is a human rights solicitor. He writes for the FT.

Faisal Islam works for Sky News.

I presume you've heard of Christopher Meyer, former ambassador to the US.