Let's not Forget Brexit(2)

I do have Labour party friends in 'the real world' that are as anti EU as the right wing of the Conservative Party, and that worries me.

www.politico.eu/article/antonio-tajani-brexit-bill-60-billion-euros/

I doubt whether Brexiteers want to agree to pay this bill.

That is less than the original bill of €100 thousand. I would think that will need to pay the pensions for the life of the ex MEPs which will be an impossible cost to estimate.

Chuka Umunna now saying that Davis's vote proposal is not a "meaningful" vote and is urging support for the EU bill amendment this week.

"The key cross party amendment to the EU (Withdrawal) Bill which provides for a proper, meaningful parliamentary vote on the arrangements for our withdrawal from the EU - David Davis' announced amendment today does not match it and so this amendment 7 is vital" Chuka on twitter just now.

David Davis always thinks that if he reads things out quickly enough the other MPs will not realise what he has really said, or what he really means. However, he's no match for all the lawyers on both sides of the house.
Hadn't realised that Anna Soubry was a barrister until last weekend.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-michael-gove-brexit-letter-theresa-may-in-control-disaster-a8050911.html

"The two halves of everyone’s favourite political pantomime horse are back in harness.

With Boris at the front and Govey cast to type as his hind quarters, this adorable creature seems to have seized control of Brexit via a genteel coup d’état."

"Without wishing to alarm you further, these two very different personalities have one gigantic thing to bind them. They are Rupert Murdoch’s placemen in the Cabinet. They’re the lads Rupert dines with in Mayfair whenever he graces us with a state visit. They are the boys he could rely on to ensure that his troubled bid for a 100 per cent stake in BSkyB is permitted.

How close Murdoch is to riding to victory upon his trusty panto steed is difficult to gauge in the midst of the chaos. But however wonderful it is to see Boris doing such a splendid job at the Foreign Office, wouldn’t it be even more splendid to watch us “get our country back” by facilitating the commercial wishes of an Australian-born naturalised American whose sovereign powers extend way beyond the right to hack mobile phones with long term impunity? "

dj
It would be helpful if you could cite your source for the post of 21.20

I didn't know about Anna till last week, either. Thought she was a businesswoman.

This is what David Allen Green thinks:

twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/930194745011396608

Or this one without the comments:

tttthreads.com/thread/930194745011396608

Sorry, I can't summarise them, you'll have to follow the link and read them.

Sorry, Maizie, it's from the Independent link in the post above that.

Thanks. I like that thread reader. Don't like what it says, but it makes a twitter thread easier to read.
I wonder if Keir Starmer agrees with what he says.
If that audible gasp means that MPs have realised how they have been duped, hopefully they will not agree to it tomorrow, or they will add another amendment.

Total contempt for Parliament - the only way out is a vote of no confidence to force a general election. They are pushing Tory moderates too far and it will only take a few of them to do what is right for the country.

The more you look at it logically the only solution to Brexit is NoBrexit. To block that as an option to Parliament let alone the electorate is unacceptable.

If you read the twitter thread I've linked to, Cindersdad it looks as though 'No Brexit' might not be as simple as people think. David Allen Green is a lawyer; thecthread is his 'opinion'.

I have to say Cindersdad, although I feel horrified, not just at what we have done but how we are doing it, I wonder what an election would do. Labour see the vote as the "will of the people" too.

We talk in a bit of an echo chamber as we all roughly agree but many of those who voted to leave are still of that opinion. I am not sure our way of reasoning makes any difference to them.

I have said in the past that I go on another forum to try and work out the 'why' of the leave voter. These are not stupid people. They may be "less educated" but they took what was on offer - often civil service style exams, etc. and were more successful that their parents. They are certainly older than the demographic on here as they are all pensioners.

However, at least one of them believed we would leave the day after the vote. A group cannot understand why Parliament is arguing because they thought ... the only way I can explain it is that they thought they were Sovereign. They have sort of accepted that the vote was advisory but believe the advice had to be accepted. They do not see this as a process but a "win" and cannot understand why people are still opposing the "result". It is a very different way of looking at things and seems to be because they are not normally very interested in politics - they don't see any point. Their conclusions are ones they reached decades ago (including worry about Corbyn being a communist in the old way of worrying about communists) and they have seen no reason to change them.

I know they are not the only group who voted leave but this sector of the population was quite a large part of that vote. If anything is to make something good come out of the situation we are in I do think we need to understand that this group almost sees this as their 'war' and us as fifth-columnists who are sympathetic to or working with our 'enemy'.

GracesGranMk2 what you say is sadly true. However I truly believe that the "Will of The People" has changed. Sufficient numbers have changed their minds to make a difference, plus many who did or could not vote to reverse the result in a second referendum. The result was close, flawed and the effects of leaving so destructive, we cannot let it go without doing everything we can to thwart it.

Labour will follow the trend if they think the country will follow them and distance themselves from the referendum. Leaving the EU does not make any sense, there are faults in the EU and as part of it we can help fix it. The Tory Right wing will never change, some Populists will never change but they a minority in both parliament and the country. Those who realize they have been duped have or are about to change their minds.

David Davis said "If a democracy cannot change its mind it ceases to be a democracy", TM and roughly half of her cabinet do not deep down support LEAVE so one big push at the right time and in the right way could kill Brexit once and for all. A second referendum may be needed to shut the hard line leavers up, it could rebound but we have to try.

I too am worried about a hard left back lash but a hard right status quo is the more harmful of two poor options.

www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-11-13/u-k-lawmakers-get-a-vote-on-brexit-but-only-if-there-s-a-deal

"Bob Posner, the U.K. Electoral Commission’s director of political finance and regulations, said in a blog posted to the regulator’s website on Tuesday that it was speaking to Facebook Inc. and Twitter Inc. about who paid for political advertising in the run-up to the June 2016 EU referendum and the May 2017 general election.

"Any receipt of impermissible donations by registered campaigners or political parties campaigning at the EU referendum, either from the U.K. or overseas, would be a serious breach of law," the Commission said in a statement Thursday. Any evidence of illegality will be referred to the police, Posner said."

Surely if it's found that there was Russian interference, the result could be declared void, and we could have another referendum. Clutching at straws?

Davis would find a way round that one Jen.

I just wish May would stop treating the population like naughty children; you voted for it so you've got to do it, whether it will be good for you or not.

I was depressed before I read that link Jen ... I feel worse now.

All very depressing.
We seem to be trapped with no way out.
Another referendum seems unlikely. Bring the Government down? Not easy. Would the Tory rebels vote their government out? They know lots of them would lose their seats.

What I think that we’ve got to hope for is that the rebels who will be threatened with a JC government if they rebel, will remember that Brexit is for ever. A government is for at the most 5 years if they mess up.

They have to realise that if we fall out then it won’t matter who is in government the country will still be completely ruined.

Anna Soubrey seems to be the Tory Brexit rebel with the most vulnerable majority (863 seats 1.6%). The other seven mentioned by Chuka on Twitter seem to be in safe seats. Though I suppose if the whip is withdrawn from them, they could be vulnerable too.

Whitewave you have said it exactly, Brexit is horribly permanent if we don't like a government the next election can get rid of them. I am life long Libdem though agree with much of what left wing Tories or right wing labour say. The extremes of both horrify me. That is why as well as stopping Brexit we need a new electoral system where votes really do count. This may well mean perpetual coalitions but they are better than left/right jerks every so often.

According to Anna Soubery this morning it is only about 35 idealogues in the tail wagging the Tory dog, 6% of MP's pushing to destroy the country for their own ends.