I see the EU Remainers' PROJECT FEAR is alive and well.

Just seen this on twitter

Brexit: (n) the undefined being negotiated by the unprepared, in order to get the unspecified for the uniformed.

Oh! Yes!

If you truly believe that we cannot possibly know the impact of Brexit, then supporting such a venture is folly indeed

Well said, whitewave. [clapping hands]

Foolish beyond belief.

Day 6 'It's called democracy you know.....'

the UK has never been a direct democracy- based on referendums, etc. The UK is a Parliamentary Democracy- we elect people to represent us. And we certainly do NOT elect them to LIE to us repeatedly- and so often that we no longer know who is lying, or lying about lying, or ...

Democracy is when our elected representatives ask for assessments to be shown to them - by democratic vote- and the GVT- who is there to serve us- refuse to do so- and lie about lying to get out of it. Democracy is about electing people to genuinely try to do the best for our country- not scupper it on their ego and offshore accounts.

Why on earth do you think that variables cannot be calculated

Because we do not know the terms of Brexit. How many variables do you think they'd be guessing there?

Totally difference once trade negotiations start - you can extrapolate then based on what you know and make things potentially useful. But that is not what is being discussed.

Right now it is as useful as a finger in the air. You have not convinced me otherwise.

Don't confuse my opinion on this point with a political stance on Brexit or my support of anything or anyone. That's just proving my point that models based on lack of information and too many unknowns lead to bad decision making.

And don’t you think that it is possible to feed the various variables in.

I can’t argue any more as it is all so ridiculous.

I think the Government is deliberately obfuscating all round.
They know that whatever sort of Brexit we finally agree (or not) many powerful groups will be furious. So they are trying to fudge every issue for as long as possible until it's too late to change things.

Jalima, I know there are good British plumbers, builders etc but the issue here is that because of Brexit the Romanian builder I referred to is now worried about his future and that of his family.
Also, should we not ask ourselves why we, as a nation, have not trained more of our own people to become valuable tradesmen/women. For years we have sent ministers over to Germany and other countries with long established traditions of apprenticeships, to ”see how it's done”. And then we continue talking about it. I know there are some attempts now to rectify this lack of solid useful apprenticeships. I hope they are successful.

Telegraph is reporting that Mays government may collapse as early as next week.

As Gina miller tweeted.

“Johnson, Davis and Gove preparing to take over. So one liar and two putin puppets- I feel sick to my stomach”

Me too - Rees Mogg too I suppose. So hard Brexit here we come and all to protect their offshore accounts I feel sick to my stomach for sure, and my heart, and my head

Evidence of the move in public opinion published by NATCEN of Strathclyde university

In February 2017 37% thought we were likely to achieve a bad deal
October 2017 57% think the deal will be bad

In February 41% thought the negotiations were being dealt with badly
October 61% think negotiations are going badly

So how would Rees-Mogg or Boris negotiate the Irish Question?
I can't see that going down well with Ireland or the EU.
We need a no confidence motion to force a general election.

Yes, me too Greta

Lots of twitter activity suggesting a deal has been done, although London playing it down. Whispers that Maybot is on the way to Brussels

Greta
The reason we stopped apprenticeships was because it was cheaper to import unqualified cheap labour.

Day 7 of the advent calender

Since the referendum real wage growth has fallen from 1.7% pa to -0.3%

petra - and whose fault was it? Did the EU force the UK GVT to stop having good apprenticeship schemes- really?

As for all the other issues, like immigration- it was a choice that the UK GVT (s) made - for their own pecuniar gains - and it was NOT the fault of the EU.

Petra, ^”the reason we stopped apprenticeships was because it was cheaper to import unqualified cheap labour^”.

The UK became a very attractive place to come to. It was easier for immigrants who came here to get housing, claim benefits etc than in other countries. We chose not to control it.

There could well be a deal done by this weekend......wouldn't that be nice?

I don't think remainers delight in delays ( which aren't actually delays they are a process ( just like a divorce) I don't think remainers are scaremongering , perhaps cautious with good cause would be more accurate. I do genuinely hope your optimistic outlook comes good, but somehow I think you may be being just a tad naive if you think it's all going to that quick & simple & smelling of roses

Nothing will be quick, it’s all a long drawn out process, but if we can get to the next stage it will be something!

Going back a little, it's interesting to understand how people see impact assessments generally and, with the change being so huge they surely should have been carried out.

However, the issue surely must be that David Davis appears to have lied - on several occasions - both to Parliament and to the public. It seems to have been allowed to disappear but I do hope it will be treated properly and he will be held to account.

Whatever happens this weekend is just the start. I don't think the extreme Wrexiters should be cheering yet.

So we have requested to remain in the SM and CU for the foreseeable future. Some sense, although the brextremists will be spitting blood, wait for them all to be doing the rounds this weekend trashing the idea.

One twitter comment says "it should be fun when the rabid Leavers find May has betrayed them and conceded everything to the EU".

I must admit it doesn't feel like that to me whitwave. I think it is a fudge and anything could come out of it over the next, much more difficult phase.

It’s not clear what the NI compromise is, seems like a change of wording to appease the DUP. But this is only the EU allowing progress to the next round of talks, and the next round of concessions from the UK.