Grans Moral Maze

My ex was not cut, my current partner was for medical reasons at age about 6.
I know which I prefer:-)

I'm not fussy!

Absolutely and totally irrelevant, surely ...this is not about your personal likes or dislikes

Point taken. The issue is whether its acceptable to remove bits from children for no medical reason, when they can't consent.

Mind you, a lot of men would never let anyone know that they had problems in that area!

What do others think about the practice of babies having their ears pierced?

Someone was saying on Radio 5 yesterday that if boys needed to be 16 to agree to circumcision they would find it a far more painful and unpleasant operation at that age.

I suppose this means that there would be far fewer men being circumcised thus one of the traditions of the Jewish and Moslem faith would slowly fade away. They might feel their religion was being undermined.

Although Iceland probably has good intentions, in practice it could be viewed as a controversial anti Jewish and anti Moslem law.

Just because a barbaric practice is sanctified by ancient religious tradition that does not mean it should not be questioned as a human rights issue in the 21st century.

If no religious rites were ever allowed to change we'd still see human sacrifice.

Quite right varian!

In my view, circumcision should be illegal except when recommended for medical reasons. FGM is already illegal and should be. I don't think many people would agree that FGM could be carried out if the female involved agreed to it and was over 16. I think the same should apply to circumcision, as such decisions may be reached after family/community pressure is applied. Would doctors be allowed under the medical code to carry out such procedures if a person over 16 requested it?

I really don't understand how thousands of Hassidic Jews can claim benefit on the basis that they must stay at home to pray. Surely in order to get benefits, a person has to prove they are seeking work? Or perhaps there is another benefit, not jobseekers allowance, that can be applied for?

FGM is not comparable with circumcision btw.

I think there must be some mistake about the Hasidic Jews and claiming benefits, I did see a tv programme not long ago about it and the wives were working as teachers.

Its still removing something without a childs permission, which surely isn't morally right?

I agree it is a barbaric custom and quite unjustified on health grounds.
But I doubt it would be banned because it could be seen as racist.

Lemongrove, the programme was called -Canvey , the promised Island- Available on iPlayer but you can read about it if you google it, it still says that 70% of the ultra orthodox population of Stamford hill live on housing and child benefits, so I didn’t imagine it!

There is a circumcision practice which involves the rabbi sucking the blood from the wound.
I wouldn't know how common it is, or if its now banned, but it has been mentioned in cases of the child contracting herpes.

It’s a fact about Hasidic Jews and their need for benefits - not a mistaken opinion. The situation varies amongst the families but benefits is often in the mix - not jsa of course but other benefits that would be payable such as housing benefit and child benefit and if the wife is working, child tax credits. They have been badly affected by the benefit cap of course and will be increasingly by the third and subsequent child rule. Many live in poverty but there is community/family support. Some of the men work part time and may be paid a little when studying. I’m not making any judgement on all of this btw

Poor old wives....doing everything, what a strange set of religious rules.

I will try and see that thanks Oopsadaisy Canvey would be a lot cheaper for them to live than London.

Lemongrove, probably will be, although the houses are all brand new and I guess the landlords will want to charge accordingly, I was going to say that it was a bit of a culture shock for everybody when they visited the Island, but I guess it won’t be as the Jewish Community won’t mix with the Canvey Islanders.
Try and catch it, it was an interesting programme.
For a change!

Actually, some Jewish folk went door knocking, offering to buy houses at more than the market value.
Some people were offended, some decided that actually they wouldn't mind taking up the offer.

The working wives must only be working in Jewish schools, not state schools as the women are not educated to degree level ( irrespective of desire or ability btw). I am very uncomfortable with any community being so isolated, irrespective of the religious reasons. There have been many reports in the press of the appalling, insanitary building where some Islamic and Orthodox Jewish schools are run ( to name just two), and I feel that the DofE should impose the same standards of teacher qualification, DBS check, Health & Safety standards, protection against discrimination on grounds of gender etc., as is a legal requirement for state schools. We should not allow practices which are against the law of the land to be over ruled on religious grounds; and to my mind this covers FGM, circumcision. religious schools and any other areas, such as religious slaughter practiced by the Abrahamic religions.

Just as we may decide it is wrong to carry out physical assaults on children, could you not also argue that all children who are capable of benefitting from integrated mainstream education should not be deprived of the opportunity?

Religious instruction should, if it is important to the parents, only be carried out at times which do not deprive the child of a normal education.

The boys and girls are kept separate, as a rule, so there is little to no chance of them attending mainstream schools.
I think documentary shows the adults socialising, and saying that ordinarily there would need to be a wall dividing men from women.

A CofE clergyman once told me that the reason Muslims and Jews do not eat pork is because their religions were founded in hot, desert areas. It would be impossible to keep pigs in such conditions.
I find this view interesting but have no idea if it is at all true.

I believe it is true, and that is also why they don't eat prawns and other shellfish -they go off too soon in the heat. It makes sense in the desert ( or did before refridgeration) but what has todo with living herd and now?

To do with living here and now (sorry)