Regret it Brexit?

Quote Joelsnan [ Grandad I gave a few theories on education and how it meets the needs of the changing employment requirement, but am not sure how to start it off as a new thread. ]End Quote

Joelsnan, I have some very strong views on education in Britain at the present time as the skills shortage in my profession is the sole reason I am still working almost every day at the age of seventeen four.

I believe that the UK will have to "step up several gears" in education if it is to have any economic future at all after Brexit. So, perhaps it should be discussed in his thread being an essential part of Britain leaving the EU in my view. However, I will leave it to others to begin that debate in this thread if so wished.

Day 6 Is it you who is studying economics? If so then you obviously know quite a bit about this.
As far as I can see it’s only one senior economist -Patrick Minford - who I referred to in a post earlier, who believes that Brexit might be good for the economy. Of course he also says, as I mentioned earlier, that Britain would have to sacrifice its industry for Brexit.
Economics is not an exact science I agree, with different modelling systems and various assumptions taken into account. But I would have more faith in Mark Carney and the majority of economists who think Brexit is bad news and a hard Brexit even more so.
I just hope we don’t have a hard Brexit.

lQuote lemongrove [There will be a guarantee for them if we can choose who we want here and their skills, that’s one of the joys of being able to please ourselves as a nation once out of the EU.] End Quote

Lemongrove, the government can offer guarantees to the any immigrants who have the necessary skills and qualifications that Britain requires, I believe that is already the situation.

However, many with the above qualifications have already decided not to move to Britain as it is seen as not welcoming to immigrants and the UK economic future so much in doubt.

Sorry day 6 is it Primrose who is the economist? Apologies if I’ve got it wrong.

It always seems ironic grandad that it’s Tories who tend to believe in Free Market economics, but not when it comes to a free market in immigration.

On the topic of free market economics being compared to free market immigration or as I would prefer to describe it free movement. I was always taught that one has to compare apples with apples not apples with pears. You cannot compare these two.

Very interesting article on the economics of labour free market.
Free movement of Labour helps with:
Solving Labour shortages
Evening out unemployment
Limiting wage inflation
Creating a more flexible work force
Filling less desirable jobs
Giving workers the chance to experience working and living abroad
Helping deal with demographic time bomb (ageing populations etc)

www.economicshelp.org/blog/1386/economics/free-movement-of-labour/

Quote mostlyharmless[ It always seems ironicgrandadthat it’s Tories who tend to believe in Free Market economics, but not when it comes to a free market in immigration.]End Quote

Yes, mostly harmless, the above does seem somewhat ironic. However, I believe that the seeds of where we are now in regards to Brexit were laid down in the Blair years. Many working areas, especially in the North of England were rapidly changed by large scale immigration over a relatively short period of time with inadequate consultation or information to existing residence of those areas.

It was also large scale resentment in the above areas to the large scale EU agency labour brought to the UK for low skill employment that was seen as undercutting local Labour as many of those agency workers were not even paid the minimum wage when the agencies deducted accommodation and food costs from their pay.

The above has cost the Labour party dearly in what was once it's heartlands of the North of England. However, it would seem that even those agency workers no longer wish to come to Britain to its now worldwide reputation as being an unwelcoming reputation of being an unwelcoming country for migrants or even those wishing to work here temporarily.

The above stated, for the Labour party there was very much some encouragement in the recent local council elections as Labour took Plymouth council. Here in the West country that is being put down to what is seen as this government "sell out" of the fishing industry in its staggering attempts to draw up a Brexit agreement which will save the London based finance industry. Also in regards to Plymouth was this government's lack of clarity in its defence policy.

In the above may also be seen how the Labour party may regain its Northern Heartlands, for if in the transition period or in the final Brexit agreement it transpires that EU agency labour will still be allowed to come to Britain, those northern areas will see "sell out" as the price they have paid in transition or final agreement.

However, it would seem even those EU agency workers do not at present wish to come to Britain.

mostlyharmless
Free movement allows companies to get out of training our youth for skilled employment by importing cheap trained labour from poorer countries that have taken the social responsibility to train their youth. U.K industry have always held profit as god so have either outsourced to Eastern Europe using EU relocation grants or have imported the cheap labour from these countries. This is what strong EU countries do...exploite the poorer members whilst keeping them in line with small infrastructure subsidies.

Disadvantages and problems of free movement of labour

Why is free movement of labour so often unpopular? Overlaps with issues such as austerity, housing and declining public services.

Very interesting article and clearly shows the problems we are experiencing with social integration, housing and the burden on services. All overextended. Good article:
www.economicshelp.org/blog/1386/economics/free-movement-of-labour/

mostlyharmless
I must show your post @21.27 to my friend who once employed 50 men fitting office furniture.
His business was wiped out by Russian employers employing mainly Eastern European workers on appallingly low wages. Not only were they being exploited with the wages, they were then stuffed again by being housed in their employers houses, for which the employers were paying about £1,000 a month in rent and charging the 'residents' £100 per week for no more than a bed.
So now we have a situation where some of my friends ex employees are signing on and receiving benefits payed for out of my taxes. Some have lost their homes so have been rehoused by the council.

I meant to add that some on GN have absolutely no idea what is going on Re immigrant labour.

Grandad1943
I have started a new thread re education and it’s fitness for purpose particularly the skills shortages Brexit will supposedly create.

I agree Petra that many workers are exploited by low wages and expensive accommodation. Both surely illegal here.
The free market /free movement has to have some controls. Minimum wage in UK limits the economic principle of free markets.

How can any legitimate business compete with what Petra is describing here. Your spot on petra one picture a thousand different views. You must think what planet are some of us on when we are theorising.
I am sorry to hear about your friends I hope they soon get some work. It's all so life changing for real people.

I believe that Britain's strongest position in regard to Brexit (should it happen in anything more than name) would be to train many more already resident in Britain in the skills the country so desperately requires. In that, the stresses of an ever growing population would be reduced on our NHS, social services and housing etc.

However, the above will require a radical change in this Countries Education policy and the view of employers in regard to training existing employees to higher qualifications rather than looking overseas for those already skilled or qualified to their needs.

Also in the above will be that the living wage would have to become the minimum wage under legislation for low skills employment and that employers would have to train such employees to higher skills if requested by the employee.

The above I believe the above is essential if Britain is to have any growing economic future outside the EU.

Many Brexit supporter's believe that just leaving the EU and stopping immigration will end Britains problems, it will not, for much else will have to change that those same Brexit supporters will certainly not like.

EU law allows a company in a member state to post employees employed by it in one member state (let’s call it the ’home‘ state) to work in a host member state. The posted workers directive allows the company to pay employees in the host country their home pay for a temporary period. This raises a concern over ’social dumping‘; whereby low-paid workers from other member states could be imported to undercut host workers. The current EU directive allows the host state to insist on national minimum wage requirements but this could be far below the wage in a particular host country sector. EU member states have, however, agreed to revise the directive to allow host countries to require compliance by the company with rules regarding sectoral terms and conditions as set down by the host state or by collective bargaining outcomes/arbitration awards made in the host state

fabians.org.uk/negotiating-the-red-lines/

Grandad1943 I am sure your right on this. I voted leave I should say at the outset and believe we have to leave a failing EU.
That said, you are quite right with what you say. I believe skills training has been downgraded in favour of University education. It became fashionable for every child to be encouraged to get to Uni, in the mistaken view that a degree would guarantee a job.

In some areas, like engineering, medical sciences etc University education is essential, however in the softer disciplines, not many people end up using their original degree in their actual employment area.

The opportunities for those with more practical skills and wanting to move straight into work vocational training became the second class option.

This country along with Germany have the best or did have the best vocational training in the world at one time.

Real apprenticeships need to be considered again. With perhaps shorter apprenticeships available throughout life instead of finishing as they use to at 21. Life long learning and all that.

Apart from "Brexit supporters believing that just leaving the EU and stopping immigration will end Britains problems", I agree with every word you say.

Education and training for skill shortage areas has been long neglected.

The posted worker directive sound like pins on a game board, the throw a six and send 100 workers to Germany, throw a five and 50 from Poland go to France etc. I am sure they would be asked still it's really dystopian. Makes me shiver.

petra I was pointing out the contradictions in the right wing traditional love affair with free trade. And saying it was strange the free trade advocates didn’t seem to think free trade in workers was a good idea (it does have advantages on a macro-economic level).

Not only do we need more apprenticeship and training schemes, we need to promote the value and importance of these schemes.

Skills training has indeed been downgraded in favour of a University education Allygran. Is this because, intentionally or not, those without a degree are viewed by others or indeed themselves as second class citizens? Lacking in intelligence or the will to succeed?

It's getting more difficult to find reliable and good tradesman like plumbers and electricians who we all need for those smaller jobs in our homes, the ones we have no idea how to tackle ourselves.

Surely it's much better to learn a trade, earn while learning then leave University with a degree that may or may not help you find work (some of the degrees on offer are questionable IMO) saddled with an enormous student loan.

Good post Smileless and what I have always thought too.
We always use trusted traders when needing plumbing work, building, electrics, etc then you know what standards you’re getting. Using Polish plumbers or Romanian builders is a leap in the dark as you cannot check credentials.We need more home grown apprentices for all sorts of trades (and these are lucrative trades too.)

Many of the Polish plumbers have been working well in the U.K. for many years and it is possibl to get opinions on them. As far as I have heard these people are good hard workers and do a good job.

Just caught a bit of the Wright Stuff discussing has Brexit caused more racism.
The Barrister Shaun from the Chase put forward an interesting theory:
The rise in right wing views extends throughout Europe and is growing. He stated that this has grown since the EU has moved from purely trading entity to one which is pushing for more political integration and federalism and the populations of the countries are rising to defend their national identities. He wonders if the EU will still be viable in ten years.
I think my idea of getting out before it implodes may have some credence.

I totally agree that we need more apprenticeships! What we need too is kick this absurd attitude towards people who take them up as somehow being academically inferior to those who have degrees. It is just ridiculous to admire someone just because they have a sometimes completely useless degree, in favour of another person who is a fully qualified electrician, plumber etc. Ironically, the latter quite often earns far moral than the former, but is still considered educationally inferior!!