Regret it Brexit?

Do you not think that many of them have business or personal interests in trying to remain?
There are probably as many economics, academics and many business leaders who are Brexiteers. It is a case of selective hearing and understanding I suppose on both sides depending on your perspective, optimistic and ready to make it work or pessimistic and will try to make it fail.

joelsnan perhaps we should be reading about this simmering unrest that you believe to be occurring throughout Europe.? Not sure where that is all happening. Even in Italy , where they haven’t had a government for 3 months, the populist parties which had a small majority together, are now talking of “ improving “ the EU and there seems to be no real desire to go any further. The divisions and inequalities in Italy have a long history ( can write about that if anyone wants) and few people blame it on the EU. The one thing a lot of people are resentful of is the Mediterranean migrant crisis which has impacted unfavourably on the south of Italy, with which they would like more help from member states, or from anywhere to be honest, ( including the U.K.)

But that is not how it is in Europe Joelsnan. Employment in many EU countries is rising and so are their wages which is why many Polish people etc are happy to go home as there are now opportunities for them there. All of the EU is doing better than the U.K. is already. There is less ‘wanting to leave the EU’ now than there was when the vote took place in U.K. - more and more people are seeing the benefits of a bigger bloc of countries trading etc.
The Federalist State is a bit of scaremongering - there are many different ways of having closer ties which do not mean a federal state. The old chestnut of a European army is not correct either. What the EU said was that it was ridiculous for every state to try and be good at every aspect of defence and that maybe each state should concentrate on whatever they are good at and then if there is a problem from an outside source Europe can work together. For instance U.K. being an island state has better naval knowledge etc. It is also very good at intelligence but quite a bit of that will be lessened when working on its own without EU assistance. We shall also lose a great deal being locked out of the Galileo project -both with jobs lost and knowledge lost but also being part of a great system.
I think it is fair to say that many Leavers did not realise there would be all these losses and the requirement for the U.K. to no longer be involved in European institutions such as Euratom and the medicines agency.

All of the EU is doing better than the U.K. is already.
I hope that is true because some newer members were having a crisis with unemployment at very high levels - even if it improving the levels are still higher than those of the UK.

www.statista.com/statistics/268830/unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

Some are still bad but I think they have all started to improve. Poor Greece of course is also dealing with many refugees landing on their shores.
In the U.K. they count the employed/unemployed but we see no numbers for those in some form of work but needing to receive benefits because of low pay or those on the dreadful 0 hours contracts. That information would be very pertinent. Has anybody seen it anywhere?

An interesting post Welshwife that Polish people are happy to return home because opportunities for them there have improved.

It rather fly's in the face of the numerous references to workers leaving, or not coming at all, because of the 'hostile environment' they find here and/or the belief that they are not wanted because of the decision to leave the EU.

Not all the returning workers, or 'not coming' workers are Polish, there are 27 EU countries.

Exactly Maizie but it was the Polish people I had read about when the exodus started after the vote - some going home to visit family for a holiday saw the change and decided to stay.
I think it is still continuing that other nationalities are leaving U.K. because of racist comments etc. Even cars with foreign reg are being damaged in U.K. - we had our French reg car keyed in a car park but some people are having far worse vandalism happening. People visiting U.K. are spending money but it would seem some people do not realise or care about this.

During the troubles in Ireland people visiting with U.K. reg cars could have a temp Irish reg for their vehicle - I suppose eventually if the behaviour continues the U.K. could do the same to continental drivers.

The basis of a customs union is that goods are subject to an external tariff. Only the EU commission, not individual countries can negotiate trade deals with other countries.

Britain as a member of the EU/EEA negotiate independent trade deals. Therefore if we stay in the customs union we are not going to be able to trade freely with countries outside of the EU/EEA. This is because we cannot secure lower prices for consumers by imposing tariff-free goods from outside of the EEA.

The idea that somehow staying in the customs union will bring about a frictionless border in Ireland, is not so if one looks at what happens in Turkey they have the same arrangement of not accepting free movement of people but being in the customs union.

Turkey entered into a customs union only deal with the EU. Goods transport from Turkey into the EU the EEA countries must have permits plus all the other required substantial documentation for each nation that is driven through to get to their destination. These permits are set by and applied for from each individual country.

Free movement of goods, and open borders goes hand in hand with free movement of people thus far with the EU Commission.

The only countries who have bilateral agreements are EFTA who accept free movement of as part of being i the customs union the two go together as far as the EU is concerned.

If we joined EFTA, to be in a customs union we would have to accept free movement and the laws of the EU that go with both. Its as simple as that.

Soft Brexit as it has become known would make us a client state of the EU. With no benefits with all the restrictions.

A hard Brexit – Britain retains complete freedom to trade with whomever we wish at lower or no tariff agreements making goods and services cheaper. In a modern trading world we have to travel light, to take advantage of the best trade deals we can.

The EEA's restrictive tariff agreements do just that restrict us.

New Zealand for instance operates as global hub centre. They have a free-market policy of radical deregulation, which includes massive cuts in personal and corporate taxation, removal of agricultural subsidies, and removal of tariffs. This might be a step too far for us. But an example of how others proper in a global market.

What does that mean?
You said:
Britain as a member of the EU/EEA negotiate independent trade deals.

You mean we can already negotiate trade deals? I thought that was one of the reasons Brexiteers wanted to Leave? So why not stay in the EU? I don’t understand.

If what you say is correct allyg why on Earth don’t we just stay in?

Where did this information come from allyg?

Good posts Joelsnan and Allygran
There are experts in all fields on both sides there are MP’s from both sides and of course, us, Joe Public on both sides.
It’s amazing how some posters don’t believe that Britain
Could possibly govern and trade by itself, I could understand teenagers thinking this, but not people of our age, it’s laughable.

MaizieD
Should read cannot negotiate. Sorry folks.
See amendment below:
Britain as a member of the EU/EEA cannot negotiate independent trade deals. Therefore if we stay in the customs union we are not going to be able to trade freely with countries outside of the EU/EEA. This is because we cannot secure lower prices for consumers by imposing tariff-free goods from outside of the EEA.

I read MaizieD. I might not always come to the same conclusion as you but it's my view and I have the right to it.

Read the whole thing Maizie. The point is that soft Brexit will not give us the freedom to trade as we wish. It will not give us a frictionless free border if we stay in a customs union because and we would have to accept freedom of movement the two go hand in hand so for me soft brevet as it is called is no go.

*It’s amazing how some posters don’t believe that Britain
Could possibly govern and trade by itself, I could understand teenagers thinking this, but not people of our age, it’s laughable.*
Of course we have been “ governing ourselves” we have general elections, a parliament and everything. And we have been “ trading by ourselves”, just benefiting from zero trade tariffs from our trading partners in the EU as well as trading with countries from all over the world. Hope you are laughing at all the educated and erudite people who are not in favour of Brexit, not all teenagers I’m afraid.

Hardly free to do as we like Geri
Being free to set limits on immigration, and being able to choose who comes here ( the skills we need) and from where etc is but one freedom, but a very important one.
Trade will open up post Brexit too.

There are educated and erudite people who are in favour of Brexit too!

Funny how we have more non EU migrants over whom we have had control than EU ones , our “control” hasn’t been very effective in that case had it?

As Day6 said earlier though, it’s not really worth discussing on social media, since we all have our own thoughts on Brexit and neither side is about to be convinced by the other.

We do have control over non EU migrants.There will always be some illegal migrants.Others are either asylum seekers( do you wish to stop that?) or people we need that have skills.

Lemongrove in support of your post on UK governing itself and making our own trading agreements I thought this might add to your argument. Its from the BBC.co.uk site.


"After 1973 we surrendered some Sovereign power to join the EU and become part of the EEC.

Because of this some powers and decision are made in the EU institutions in Brussels.

There is disagreement over how many of the laws that govern our lives originate in the European Union. Some of those campaigning to remain in the EU claim that only 13% of laws passed by Parliament implement the UK's obligations under EU law.
This figure ignores the many EU regulations that are automatically binding on the UK and do not pass through Parliament.
Some of those campaigning to leave the EU claim that 65% of UK law is EU-influenced. This figure does include EU regulations but also some which have little impact on the UK, such as those affecting olive oil production.
What does the EU do?
The European Union makes law on a wide range of issues, including common trade rules, subsidies for farming and fisheries, environmental regulations, transport deals, and energy co-operation. That is by no means a complete list.
Although Parliament has ceded some sovereignty to the EU over these and other issues, the UK does still have a say. The government has the power to vote against - or sometimes even veto - proposals in the Council of Ministers.
Britain's 73 MEPs can support or oppose measures in the European Parliament. But once an EU law is agreed, the UK must abide by it or face censure from the judges at the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg, who make sure that no-one is breaking EU rules.
Man holding new five euros coinsImage copyrightEPA
..and what doesn't it do?
Obviously, the EU does not get involved in all legislation.
Parliament retains control over the fundamental decisions: how much of our income is directly taxed, how much of that money is spent on welfare, health and education, how our streets and borders are policed, when and where our armed forces go to war, what our foreign policy is towards the rest of the world, and so on.
And if the UK does co-operate with the EU on any of these issues, it is voluntary and the government can either veto a proposal or choose not to take part.
UK opt-outs?
The UK has opted out of some EU laws and agreements, including economic and monetary union (the euro), the border-free Schengen zone, the charter of fundamental rights, and some security and justice issues.
And of course Parliament could still, at any time, even without a referendum, decide to opt out of the EU entirely by repealing the 1972 European Communities Act. In this way, Parliament remains theoretically sovereign.
The argument for leaving the EU:
Leaving the EU would restore parliamentary sovereignty, returning power from Brussels to Westminster so that the decisions that affect our lives are made by politicians who we can hold to account by kicking them out at a general election."
From: BBC.co.uk (Googled)

I found this helpful is sorting out what power is with Brussels and what is going to come back to Westminster.

I’m not sure that the non EU migrants are all skilled workers/ asylum seekers or illegal immigrants . Means there must be a lot of illegal ones - says a lot about control doesn’t it? Every high street has a nail bar full of Vietnamese girls - are they counted as skilled workers? What about all those cleaners in hospitals from non EU countries, I could run through a whole list but no point as I am sure you will say the government are going to be in control ( even though they haven’t demonstrated any competence in being in control) and there’s nothing to worry about.

What has to be considered in any discussion in regard to European legislation overriding UK Parliamentary decisions would be that several European directives have been drawn up out of British legislation over the years.

By example, in my own occupation (industrial Safety) the foundation UK legislation was enacted under The Health and Safety's Work act 1974. However, much of that provision was placed into the initial European Directive on Workplace safety in 1989.

In what has become known as "framework directives" the legislation lays down basic standards in many areas to prevent unfair competition by companies cost cutting in such sectors as workers rights, workplace safety, employee maximum working hours etc.

As I remember, it was Maggie Thatcher that was instrumental in bringing forward the first of such directives with her allegations of "no level playing field" in European competition.

However, the European Union did allow Britain an opt out of the maximum working hours directive, which is still in effect at present

Therefore, it can be argued that flexibility has been shown to the UK and other EU member states in regard to European directives with the exception of basic industrial and Commercial (product manufacturing) safety.