Regret it Brexit?

grandad this is all true, yet brexiteers want to believe in taking back some mythical control, when, even when we have control already the incompetence of our government is evident. There are few countries in the world which are not part of a trading bloc of other countries, yes, we can be a banana republic or an off shore tax haven for Russian oligarchs who wish to launder money , oops we are that already aren’t we? We aren’t going to be a huge trading power as we don’t manufacture anything. We are a low productivity service economy with financial services being the greatest contributor. This is why the government have to pay more attention to the City of London than to fishing, which is a miniscule industry by comparison.

Even the sainted Daily Mail today is saying people “didn’t vote to leave to get rid of the economic benefits of the EU”.

Gerispinger you cannot lump all Brexiteers together as an amalgous mass who think exactly the same and have yearnings to return to years gone by. This is not the case for the majority who want to move forward.
Brexiteers could say the same about remainders who seem to hate everything the UK has become since becoming part of the EU but want to continue along the same route. What I find strange is the general dislike that many people have for their home country.
Why, when the majority of the rest of the world trades without the absolute need for the federalist intent of the EU cannot we?

I think that most people only dislike what the U.K. has become SINCE the referendum - which does seem to have unleashed the feeling in some people that they can say whatever they like or behave how they like to foreign people and it is all OK.

Brexiteers could say the same about remainders who seem to hate everything the UK has become since becoming part of the EU but want to continue along the same route - I'm not sure how you work this out - surely its the Brexiteers who hate everything the UK has become - thats why they want to change it surely?

I like a lot of what the uk has become - a more outward looking European country. I certainly don't want to raise the drawbridge on that. I don't like a lot of this and previous governments have done to our domestic policy - cutting public services etc, but thats all pour own making -we should be tackling rather than going round the houses on the mess that is Brexit.

The hard Brexiters have a peculiar way of expressing their patriotism. They proclaim an unsurpassed love for Britain while trashing its institutions with an unbridled hatred. The supreme court, the Bank of England and the civil service have all felt the white heat of the hard Brexiters’ incontinent rage. The BBC is another of their “enemies of the people”, as are any parliamentary colleagues who have the temerity not to subscribe to the fundamentalism of the true believers. “Traitors”, “wreckers” and “saboteurs” all.

The latest target for their furies is the House of Lords, because peers have performed their function by suggesting some changes to the withdrawal legislation.....

The last effort (to reform the HoL) was in the coalition years, when Nick Clegg, with tepid support from Mr Cameron, brought forward legislation which proposed that the Lords be replaced with an 80% elected chamber. That attempt at reform was sabotaged by a rebellion by Conservative backbenchers. And who was prominent in that revolt against democracy? Among the names were one Bernard Jenkin and one Jacob Rees-Mogg, the very same Jenkin and the very same Rees-Mogg who now fulminate against the unelected peers they previously battled to preserve. Also among the saboteurs were Nadine Dorries, Peter Bone, Steve Baker, Bill Cash and other hard Brexiters who now pose as tribunes of the people. Oh, and we shouldn’t forget that David Davis, the Brexit secretary himself, was one too, along with the Brexiter press that now bellows about the “treachery” of the upper house.

www.gransnet.com/forums/news_and_politics/a1247797-Regret-it-Brexit?msgid=26706824#26706824

Reform for the HOL is a whole other subject Varian.
I welcomed at the time what Nick Clegg was trying to do, but many people didn’t agree.
It’s actually not a problem that not everybody agrees with any thoughts/actions in politics.
Joelsnan that’s what is happening, anyone ( over 17 million) who voted to Leave are all lumped together as tub thumpers for days of Empire/ racists/ etc.It’s beyond
ludicrous.

I have never seen or heard anyone, no matter how distraught and horrified they are about the dreadful brexit vote, lump together everyone who voted to leave as tub thumpers for days of Empire/racists/etc. Its beyond ridiculous to suggest that.

What we do know is that it is highly likely that all the racists who voted (and sadly there are quite a lot of them) voted to leave.

Gerispringer. " I like a lot of what the uk has become - a more outward looking European country. I certainly don't want to raise the drawbridge on that."

How much more outlooking than trading worldwide can any Country be!

Well it’s just as ludicrous to lump all remainers together as all hating the U.K..

Varian. You say:"The hard Brexiters have a peculiar way of expressing their patriotism. They proclaim an unsurpassed love for Britain while trashing its institutions with an unbridled hatred".
Soft Brexit. There is no soft Brexit, that would lead back into the EU via EFTA as part of the EEA with customs union and freedom of movement and no representation in decision making. The worst of all scenarios.

The EU say that customs union and freedom of movement go hand in hand, no cherry picking. Brexit means leaving the customs union and free movement. There is no soft Brexit.

As for your comment: "They [Brexiteers] proclaim an unsurpassed love for Britain while trashing its institutions with an unbridled hatred".
First, don't we all love our Country, warts and all? Second, the institutions you mention as and when inbalance in predictions or reporting have become evident, these have been highligthed naturally, as has happened when remain supporters have noticed imbalance in any other institutional predictions or support.
As for the emotive element "unbridled hatred" this is surely over egging the pudding Varian.

How much more outlooking than trading worldwide can any Country be! allyg

We already trade with the rest of the world.
£284 billion exports rest of world 2016
£235 billion exports to EU 2016

U.K. Exports to China, US, Canada, Hong Kong, Japan, Turkey, India, South Korea, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Czech Republic, South Africa, Australia, Singapore, and many many more.

Varian. "What we do know is that it is highly likely that all the racists who voted (and sadly there are quite a lot of them) voted to leave."

I really must ask you to either verify your statement above or withdraw it.

It’s another Brexit Myth that we don’t trade with the rest of the world ag.
But I’m sure you’ll prefer to continue to believe the Brexit lies rather than the government statistics.

www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21

Mostlyharmless
Yes we do through the EU agreements and tariff structure. Just think how much better those figures can be once we can trade directly with the outside world, setting our own tariffs or no tariffs even.

Mostlyharmless.

Let's clear this trading with the rest of the world up once and for all.

We trade within EU trading agreements as do the other 20 odd Countries in the EU under the pre agreed tariff structures negotiated by the EU with other countries outside the EEA.

Once we leave, we can have our own trading agreements with more competitive tariffs or no tariffs. We can be in control of our own trading agreements and arrangements without restrictions.

I see you are the font of all knowledge on Brexit. Clearing up all misunderstandings “once and for all”. No idea why the negotiations are so complex, the negotiators should just ask allygran.

Really? allyg.
What evidence do you have for that these trading agreements would be easy to negotiate? It is expected to take up to ten years! And what evidence do you have that trade with the rest of the world would be more profitable than now?
What assurances do you have that health and safety standards would be the same as now or better?
Tell us how many extra visas would be demanded by these new international trade partners.
We already have a huge surplus in trade with the rest of the world. What are the projected revenues post Brexit?

Don’t believe the Brexit lies.

Negotiating in a bloc is actually economically beneficial for all parties in negotiating the best trade deals, which is why almost every country in the world is in one.

Quite gerry.
I believe U.K. has a crippling shortage of experienced trade negotiators.
Sounds as if allyg would. Be an ideal candidate!

Varian you say:
"The latest target for their furies is the House of Lords, because peers have performed their function by suggesting some changes to the withdrawal legislation....."

The House of Lords I had previously thought should be democratised, making it an elected chamber. Surely I thought, it is not right that an unelected chamber gets to make decisions on our laws. Of late I have revised my views.

You are quite right that The Liberal Democrats, when sharing government with the Conservative Party, brought a motion to parliament to replace the unelected House of Lords with an elected second chamber. This failed in a Parliamentary vote.

At the time I really felt this was a bad move and we should have an elected second chamber, however having read about the elected second chamber system in Australia, I now believe that this would not be the answer, nor do I think the the HOL should be dissolved completely. So a Dilemma for me personally.

A revising second chamber nevertheless, remains part of our constitution. Given that it still exists in my view it is appropriate for it to do its job.

The elected House of Commons the people we voted to represent us can over-rule any House of Lords amendments. So there is no question of the democratic process being thwarted by the Lords.

We have to trust to those we elected as Members of Parliament to make the right decision for the Country.This is democracy at work.

Unlike the groups who wish to destroy democracy by overturning a legal majority vote to Brexit. My view and that of other leave voters, that I know, believe that it is democracy as much as anything else, that is being fought for since the Brexit referendum.

We therefore have to trust in that democratic Parliamentary process including as part of our constitution the HOL. I have no doubt that we must not interfere with democracy, that has to be sacrosanct, either in the form of a democratic majority vote or the actions of the second chamber.

Gerispringer.

It is only beneficial if the needs of the group are the same. How can that be when there are diverse needs across the EEA.

Mostly Harmless
Thanks for the confidence in my negotiating ability. Sadly those days are over for me. Unless the salary is too good to refuse!

Mostlyharmless

Did I say they would be easy to negotiate?

Mostlyharmless.

My view is that having all your eggs in one basket, in a fast moving and changing world cannot be good. The EU system whilst it consisted of seven countries had a chance, but a few supporting 20 plus Countries makes it economically unsustainable, with the knock on effect of social instability through unemployment and mass migration to the few richer countries. The EU has managed to see a Europe that has moved from centrist politics on the whole polarising more and more to far right and far left. Surely the EU can hardly be classed as an homogeneous group of countries,