Labour Party and anti semitism

I beg to differ. The Palestinian issue is at the heart of the anti Semitism row in the LP. If JC had not been empathetic to Palestine, met with the elected reps. of Palestine then it would not be a story. It would also be naive to think the Israeli supporters were going to sit back and do nothing. Equally that those who use dissent for their own political ends would not try to manipulate the subject. Add to that the internal power struggles in the party and you have the perfect ingredients to distract us all from the debacle going on in a) the Tory party b) Brexit & c) the rise of the far right.
The sad plight of longstanding refugees in already impoverished countries has nothing of relevance to this particular thread.

So you have an axe to grind PECS which is colouring how you view the anti-semitism within the LP.
Unfortunately that same viewpoint ( sympathy only towards the Palestine cause) is exactly what has led to Corbyn’s troubles.

Only a few posts back Jews were referred to as incomers. Said it all for me.

Corbyn has now released a statement , I didn’t think even he could spout such a load of crap .

Allygran1 your protestations about the Palestinians plight and your professed neutrality might be acceptable if you were to actually acknowledge some of the things Israel has done. You were asked by PECS about Israel attacking soft targets. and claimed to know nothing. It isn't an area I have researched but I did remember an attack on a refugee camp, which when I googled it came up instantly -The Battle of Jenin after which Amnesty condemned Israel for war crimes and Palestinian sources spoke of a massacre. But which certainly left 4000 Palestinian refugees homeless.
I haven't checked your posts from Forbes and would urge others not to do so. It is a site notorious for carrying Malware.
As for why other Arab countries haven't taken in Palestinians. There the evidence of your real beliefs is revealed. Why should they? Should we examine all refugees at checkpoints and ascertain their ethnic origins and their religious beliefs and then alot them to countries we feel they belong to? So Catholics to Italy perhaps? If not why should we expect poor Arab muslim countries to take more than rich Western countries? It's simply a racist argument that you wouldn't be allowed to make if you were discussing Israeli Jewish refugees.

I take great exception to your statement that I " have an axe to grind". You would certainly not have said that if I was an Israeli or a Jew putting forward reasons to consider Zionist perspective. My family has their own diaspora..we are all over the world..as a result of snatching of homes and land. However because my family lived in Palestine ( Nazareth, Jeffa Haifa &Jerusalem) they lived harmoniously alongside Christians, Jews & Muslims and drew good friends from all these 'groups'. Their difficulties and the Nakba occurred because of a political decision and ideology, given strength internationally because of the horror of the Holocaust. So I was brought up to respect people for how they treated you and not because they shared my religious, ethnic or cultural background. The person who my father found great friendship with when he came to London was a Jewish lawyer. He gave my father a pupilage so he could complete his legal qualifications to become a barrister. Joe too had been rejected by the British "old school tie" brigade. He did not care that dad was Palestinian Arab and dad did not care that Joe was Jewish.It was irrelevant to their friendship. Uncle Joe & wife were part of our family. I have always lived in cross cultural communities since I was born .It is my normal to have friends and family from different faiths/ cultures.

Trisher, your post is what I can only describe as selective and out of context, it would be unkind to say deliberately misrepresentative of what I did say.

Let's address each of your "claims".
You say: ^trisher Sat 04-Aug-18 10:14:56
Allygran1 your protestations about the Palestinians plight and your professed neutrality might be acceptable if you were to actually acknowledge some of the things Israel has done.

I recommend that you re-read the post, it is a very long one, but before rushing to a conclusion and making yourself look foolish, it is best to read it.

You then say: You were asked by PECS about Israel attacking soft targets. and claimed to know nothing

What I actually said was: So the answer would be simple I don't know. But that might be a lost opportunity to do some research, --which I have done--.

You then attempt to stop people looking at Forbes by implying, no saying that I haven't checked your posts from Forbes and would urge others not to do so. It is a site notorious for carrying Malware. Please justify that claim.

You then go on to claim you know what I believe:
As for why other Arab countries haven't taken in Palestinians. ^There the evidence of your real beliefs is revealed^". What exactly do you believe my 'real beliefs' to be Trisher?

Your next statement is astounding and much diminishes you in my view. Should we examine all refugees at checkpoints and ascertain their ethnic origins and their religious beliefs and then alot them to countries we feel they belong to? ^So Catholics to Italy perhaps^"? What utter nonsense, I imagine even you would not prescribe to that!

You then excel with your sense of injustice and reveal your beliefs to me Trisher, which I am in no way condemning, since it is your right to believe what you wish. I simply wish to offer you a balanced view, not a neutral one you understand, since I can never claim to be neutral, nor do I respect neutrality since it seems to me that it is a self serving and selfish stance to "sit -on -the -fence" so to speak. However, I do support strongly and believe that whatever one believes, it must be come to by seeing all sides of the issue. By not shying away from admitting that there may be some things that are for and some things that are against our position on a subject one might still retain the original view taken, but with knowledge and understanding of the other persons view, it makes for a balanced position, a new argument rather than a narrow rigid one.

This thread is about antisemitism in the Labour Party and the persecution of those Labour Party members and MP's who stand against antisemitism in the Party.

The reason we got onto Palestine is through the belief that JC is a far left Trotsky, hence his support all his life of terrorist groups.

I was asked by either you or PECS where is the Palestinian voice in this thread, well the Palestinian voice in the broadest sense is that of JC who offers a platform and support's Hamas a terrorist group purporting to represent the Palestinians, amongst other.

What started this thread was the suppression of those against antisemitic voices.

Now as for the reason that Palestinians are still largely not absorbed or integrated into the host Countries across the Levant in the course of nearly 70 years. It is not being helped by those who misdirect the issue to Israel rather than where it should belong after second, third and now fourth generations have been born in what can and must be now called Enclaves not camps. I offer up to you a site that will give you information from the needle to the thread on:

pdfs.semanticscholar.org/5fe7/26e0243501808d403ebb2fb230e5a1b45ba3.pdf

By: Sari Hanafi
Issam Fares Institute for Public Policy and International Affairs American University of Beirut
Also:
www.unrwa.org/who-we-are/frequently-asked-questions

This explains exactly why the vast enclaves of Arab Muslim Palestinians in host Countries across the Levant have not been absorbed or integrated (on the whole) into the host Countries communities. It has nothing to do with the "poor Arab muslim countries to take more than rich Western countries?" since vast amounts of money, aid, education and other service, along with official Governance all funded by mostly 'rich Western country's" as well as the US.

PECS your story is enlightening and shows the determination and courage that ordinary people can demonstrate in difficult and imposed circumstances. It also demonstrates the ability of human beings to put aside difference and accept without compromise the religious, social, political and economic differences between us.

This story demonstrates perfectly why this thread was put up for discussion. The prevention of the persecution and subjugation of MP's, and members of the Labour Party who find it abhorrent that antisemitic behaviour and views are being seen as acceptable under the Corbyn Labour Party.
Sometime's when people cannot stand up for themselves as with the Jews in the Labour Party and their supporters, then others must speak out, be they Christian's, Jews, Palestinians, whoever. It cannot be right that a any people identified by their religion can be vilified, labelled and "othered". That applies to all.

The danger is that Politicians with strong ideological views don't have the same motivations as their followers, who often don't realise the hidden agenda. It is also sometimes socially acceptable within a narrow social network to be anti Jews because it is the "in -thing" to be against, or it is the "in- thing" to be for Palestinian refugees, therefore we must be against Israel, without really thinking about what it is we are supporting or why we are against. It may be that being for does not need people to be against something else.

Is what we think real, is it now relevant or has that old chestnut become a tree and we just did not notice. The real issues of Palestine and the Arab Muslim Palestinians across the Levant in host Countries, is not now a question of how they came to be there, in 1948, most of those refugees as they were then are no more. It's now why are their descendent still there in what are now not refugee camps, they are massive enclaves in host Countries, Internationally supported communities after 70 years.

An interesting title Sovereignty: Art of Inclusive Exclusions in the link's:
pdfs.semanticscholar.org/5fe7/26e0243501808d403ebb2fb230e5a1b45ba3.pdf

By: Sari Hanafi
Issam Fares Institute for Public Policy and International Affairs American University of Beirut
Also:
www.unrwa.org/who-we-are/frequently-asked-questions

Please if you have time take the opportunity to read them, you may not think you need to know more than you do since, as you told me Palestine is 'who you are" or something like that. But it might just give you one small thing that you did not know. Then you might consider looking at the tree not the chestnut.

PECS I should also say you do seem to have chip on your shoulder: You would certainly not have said that if I was an Israeli or a Jew putting forward reasons to consider Zionist perspective. I can't speak for the person you were addressing, but from my point of view yes I would.

Why would you think that one would only challenge your perspective of Israel and the Jew's but ignore the perspective of an Israeli or a Jewish person's perspective of Palestine? If there is an issue or a question or a reaction even to what you or anyone else say's on here, believe me people will challenge it, support it or question it. The fact that you think we would not concerns me. You seem to be generalising, categorising and incorrectly attributing attitudes to some including me that are wrong.

My father was fortunate to work as an adviser with UNWRA for a period of time. I see the tree..I see the whole damn forest! I am not sure why you refer to Palstinians with the added words Muslim.Arabs? Whilst Palestinians are of different faiths and none not sure why you single out that group?

Having an axe to grind means ( as you know) not being impartial PECS and you certainly don’t sound impartial.
Only thinking of the Palestinian point of view is exactly what the extreme leftwing in the UK do, which in turn can lead to anti-semitism.

Allygran1 about Forbes from Wiki Currently, the website also blocks internet users using ad blocking software (such as Adblock Plus) from accessing articles, demanding that the website be put on the ad blocking software's whitelist before access is granted.[29] Forbes argues that this is done because customers using ad blocking software do not contribute to the site's revenue. Malware attacks have been noted to occur from Forbes site.[30]
I always investigate sites before clicking on links.
The diatribe you have posted was much what I would have expected. If your view is "neutral" I dread to think what bias involves. As for my post. I simply asked a question and your response was to accuse me of certain 'beliefs'. I simply carried your idea to its logical conclusion, something you apparently find distasteful, which of course it is, applied in any form to anyone.
UNRWA still refers to what you term "enclaves"as camps. When someone starts messing with language it always bothers me. It usually is an attempt to make something unacceptable more palatable.
As for why are the Palestinians still there perhaps because they have no homeland to go to.
Incidently Corbyn isn't a "far left Trotskyist" and he has always condemned violence on all sides and by all organisations. But speaking to groups such as Hamas (who I notice again you refuse to refer to as a political organisation) is the only way forward if a peaceful solution is ever to be found. But you do reveal an interesting link by giving your opinion od JC's political beliefs and the accusation of ant-semitism against him.

Corbyn isn’t a Trotskyist......oh yes he is!

You will realise I am just catching up with this thread, PECS just seen your denial that JC's allegiances to Hamas, PLO, PLA therefore as you put it ^The sad plight of longstanding refugees in already impoverished countries has nothing of relevance to this particular thread". The relevance surely is that that JC's Hamas et al allegiances, association and support as, you say as representative's of the Palestinian Arab Muslims hosted by Country's in the Levant who you describe as refugees, and as I think I have shown cannot after 70 years be regarded as such, has nothing to do with his attitude to Israel? Nor do you believe does it influence his attitude to antisemite comments and growth of antisemitism in the Labour Party he leads. Well we will have to disagree on that one.

You cannot deny surely that people speaking out about the growth of antisemitism in the Labour Party are being shouted down, ignored, threatened with deselection, or the whip being removed etc. Nor surely can you deny that Corbyn is largely side stepping it and even when he does speak out, the words are worth interrogation, as they can be taken many ways, certainly not an outright denial, or admission of his own position with regard Israel and the Jewish people.

Now just so we are clear, what is being said here is in response to your claim that if you were a Jew you would not get the same response on GN. Yes you would. I for one would put your comments, statements, whatever your religion or stance to the challenge if that is what I though I should do.

In this thread, your comments are creating a response in connection with your denial that Corbyn is influenced by his relationship, support and allegiances to Palestinian Arab Muslim terrorist and legitimised groups who support Palestinian's in camps in host Countries across the Levant for 70 years and his antisemitic Labour party, or his response to those who are challenging antisemitism in the Labour party.

Clearly I believe the two cannot be separated. Corbyn's personal allegiances, political views are influencing the growth of antisemitism in the Corbyn run Labour party, resulting in the persecution of those Labour MP's and members who challenge it.

Corbyn is a Trotskyist, always has been. His assurances in the Guardian has gone down like a lead balloon, why on earth have it published on the Jewish Sabbeth. How much longer before he splits the party, something he and his devotees want sooo badly, then they can really have a communist party.

Tom Harris has quite the party now after 34 years

Trisher, you might not know this but personal attacks are the lowest form of debate.

Do get your facts right Trisher. Hamas is a terrorist group.
Corbyn is a Trotskyite.

Please read the links I have offered to you. You will see that the camps are considered 'enclaves' do read, I urge you to see more.

The diatribe you have posted was much what I would have expected. Why?

If your view is "neutral" I dread to think what bias involves.
Your clearly very committed to your own belief on this. I have given you what I believe is a balanced view, with fact's and information. But all I get back is attack.

As for my post. I simply asked a question and your response was to accuse me of certain 'beliefs' Do read the post.

I simply carried your idea to its logical conclusion, something you apparently find distasteful, which of course it is, applied in any form to anyone.
I have no idea what your conclusion is perhaps you could try explaining it, I will find it interesting.

We are so far apart on this Trisher, you are unwilling to read anything you are unwilling to look at the bigger issue, including the forrest that our friend PECS is talking about. D o read the report link, knowledge won't hurt you, it's about the Governance of the Arab Muslim Palestinian camps if you like or as they are also known enclaves. Why you find enclave difficult I do not understand. Unless it sounds more established than camp, which of course after 70 years most are. Do read the report it is very informative, detailed and covers many Sociological aspect of the whole situation of Arab Muslim Palestinians in host Countries across the Levant.

Ally gran1 the UNRWA site says DOES UNRWA RUN THE REFUGEE CAMPS?
No. UNRWA does not administer the camps but is responsible for running education, health, and relief and social services programmes, which are located inside and outside camps.
So for UNRWA they are still camps.
As for Hamas it is regarded by some as a terrorist organisation but not in Europe, where only its military wing is classed as such. It is the party responsible for governing Gaza
In September 2016 a legal advisor to the European Court of Justice, Eleanor Sharpston, provided an advisory opinion, in favour of cancelling the listing of Hamas as a terrorist organization. She argued that the determination originally adopted was flawed, and that the EU cannot "rely on facts and evidence found in press articles and information from the internet" in order to list organizations as terrorists.[441] Egypt,[442] Saudi Arabia,[443] Japan,[444] New Zealand,[445] Australia and the United Kingdom[446] have designated the military wing of Hamas as a terrorist organization.[447] The organization is banned in Jordan.[448] It is not regarded as a terrorist organization by Iran,[449] Russia,[450] Norway,[451] Switzerland,[452] Turkey, China,[453] and Brazil.[454]
The issue is so much more complicated than the picture you try to present.
The logical conclusion to any idea is that you take that idea and using the basis of it transfer the idea to other situations. So you advocate that Palestinians because they are ethnically Arabs and may be Muslim should be taken in by Arab Muslim countries. I then took this idea to the ridiculous conclusion that therefore perhaps all refugees should be allocated to countries based on their ethnicity and religion. I didn't say it should be done I simply asked a question. It is of course totally ridiculous as is the idea that only Arab countries should be solely responsible or that all Palestinians are Muslims.
Refugee camps are places where displaced people are housed in the hope that they may eventually return to the country they have been displaced from. Calling them "enclaves" implies that they have some sort of permanent territorial right to be where they are and there is no need to return the people to their homeland.

It would be so much easier on the West's conscience if the Palestinians just melted away and became even more invisible. I don't know why they just don't give up their claim to their homeland, houses , farms etc. What a fuss they make. Who needs a homeland anyway?

We all need a homeland, one can’t but help think what it was like for Jews to be scattered around the world, driven out of countries, hated so much

Pretty much the same as it is for Palestinians Annie Palestinians are actually human beings just like Jews! They love their kids, like to work and earn a living and everything. It's amazing how like real people they are!

Persecuted so much for centuries particularly in Eastern Europe. Pushed on from pillar to post, denied citizenship, ethnically cleansed again and again till the 'final solution'! Yes on balance I would say they needed a homeland!!

Sarcasm was uncalled for PECS , for some they think sarcasm is a weapon, it isn’t , just sad and yes a form of bullying

Just trying to raise the issue that there are two groups of equal human beings but one group is seen as far more worthy of empathy than the other. I have not seen you, or other Israeli Government supporters show any empathy for Palestinians at all or even acknowledge the IDF is regularly censured for breaking international law.

There have been shocking actions from both sides but only one side gets sympathy.

nigglynellie if I may use irony , I would point out that the Palestinian Jews were not persecuted by the Palestinian Arabs. Much of the early objection to Zionist policies came from local Jews who did not want to conflate religion with politics. We don't like it when Muslims try to set up Islamic states do we? It is not right.

Prepare for a shock PECS, I knew Palestinians were human beings , please do not patronise me .

Now do say when I have I voiced support for the Israeli government , you cannot but do you have the good manners to apologise for making a false accusation?

I assume I am an Israeli government supporter because I hold Corbyn in contempt, oh these Corbyn devotees

I apologise if I have missed your posts expressing empathy for Palestine/Palestinians and your condemnation of Israeli aggression. I therefore have assumed you supported Israel. You do not appear to acknowledge that JC support for Palestinian human rights might be a legitimate thing for a Labour leader to do. I admit I used that too, to assume your support for Israel. I am glad you do not support Israel's current government.

I am not patronising you Annie but you do keep repeating things.
I understand your position: You do not like JC, you think he is a Trot & anti Semitic. You think that he has encouraged anti-Semitism in the LP by failing to challenge it more publicly. You do not agree that the rt of Labour may be using the anti-Semitism row as an opportunity to undermine JC's democratically elected leadership. You do not agree that the extreme rt wing may be manipulating the situation for their own devious ends.
My opinion, as a LP member, is different to yours. Not wrong...just different.