Labour Party and anti semitism

Another perspective from Middle East Monitor . It was reported elsewhere too.

"I am ‘the world’s proudest Jewish Nazi’, says Tommy Robinson campaigner
A Jewish campaigner for Tommy Robinson has caused outrage by telling protesters that he is “the world’s proudest Jewish Nazi”
A Jewish campaigner for Tommy Robinson has caused outrage by telling protesters in a demonstration against the jailing of the far-right British activist that he is “the world’s proudest Jewish Nazi”.

The comments captured on video shows an Australian Jewish man, who is believed to be a former Israeli soldier, draped in the Australian flag addressing protestors on a London street. “No matter what the left call us, I am the world’s proudest Jewish Nazi,” he roared to a cheering crowd. “Tommy is my brother, Tommy is my leader,” he shouted.

A female protestor then took the microphone to rally the crowd. “Tommy understands the threat and the threat is Islam,” she yelled before declaring that “there is no moderate version [of Islam].”

The video, which was shared on Facebook, was denounced by incredulous members of the public. “I’m Jewish and this makes me so angry,” said a Facebook user. “I have no problem whatsoever with Islam which at its core is a peaceful religion,” she insisted. Warning against the form of hate speech seen on the video she added: “Hitler’s persecution of the Jews started with propaganda in the 20’s. By the time Jews were put into ghettos and then openly murdered the media had made them into less than human to the point where they could be blamed for everything and hardly anyone would speak up for them. This is what’s been happening for over a decade to Muslim people.”

Others were quick to point out the hypocrisy of the Board of Deputies of British Jews over their campaign against the Labour party over a definition of anti-Semitism. “If the Board of Jews were remotely interested in the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism, they would be up in arms about this as this man specifically equates himself as a Jew with Nazism.”

Robinson’s imprisonment last May for being in contempt of court sparked protests in several cities in Europe and America. It was later discovered that a notorious hard-line, pro-Israel conservative think tank was paying his legal costs.

The pro-Israeli far-right campaigner is known to have many sympathisers including members of US President Donald Trump’s administration. It was reported that Breitbart, a white-supremacist news platform, lobbied the White House to raise Robinson’s case during a meeting between the ambassadors of the US and UK.

This episode further highlights the embrace of Europe’s fascists by the current Israeli government. Earlier this month the prime minister of Hungary, denounced by Hungarian Jews for running an anti-Sematic campaign, was hosted by Prime Minister of Israel Benjamin Netanyahu. Critics have pointed out that there exists a dangerous “unholy alliance between Israel and alt-right ideologues”.

Had it never occurred to you PECS that this man is a nutcase?

That would be the easy thing to do. Sadly he is one of many who hold these crazy and dangerous views. Dangerous to Jews, Muslims, black people, gays, Roma, disabled, communists etc etc. It has happened before.

Do you think the person known as Tommy Robinson is reasonable and centrist? The alt right lobbied for his release. But hey that's ok. He & his ilk a real threat to the safety of Jews .

Are you asking me?
‘The person known as Tommy Robinson’ why not just say Tommy Robinson?
He is a far right bully boy ( possibly also a nutcase] but the man in Australia certainly sounds as if he is one too.

Yes lemon I was asking you about him as you were so dismissive of his supporter. I am sure you know his actual name is not Tommy Robinson. He adopted it to sound more English & possible to cover tracks!

Here is another article that asks the questions I

"The mainstream media’s wall-to-wall coverage of the seemingly never-ending Labour anti-Semitism saga shows that they clearly must care about the issue a great deal. However, given the unprecedented coverage they’ve given to Labour’s ongoing issues surrounding antisemitism, it seems slightly odd that the same people have offered nothing but eerie silence regarding the fact that three top Conservative politicians have been exposed holding secret meetings with an openly racist White Supremacist neo-Nazi leader who is accused of outright antisemitism, and whose supporters were recorded chanting “Jews will not replace us“. Very odd indeed.

In contrast to Labour’s extremely nuanced debate around the precise definition of antisemitism – one that has now, incredibly, led to both a Jewish member of the party being suspended for alleged anti-Jewish hatred, as well as a now-deceased Corbyn-supporting Holocaust survivor whose parents were both murdered by the Nazis being labelled an antisemite by the mainstream media – the debate around the Tories’ dealings with actual Jew-haters are far more clear cut."

Corbyn has given an interview

“Yes there is a continuing problem but the party will do what ever it takes to safeguard the Jewish community.

No one can, or should try to belittle the concerns expressed by so many Jewish people and organisations about what has been happening in the party.

He goes on to say any government I lead will take whatever measures are necessary to gaurantee the security of Jewish communities,culture, schools, places of worship.

Driving anti semitism out of the party for good and rebuilding trust.

We were to slow in processing disciplinary cases of anti semetic abuse. Denying the continuing problem doesn’t help. ,

PECS and Trisher I hope you don't mind I am going to answer both your queries in this one post, it makes sense to do so.
I should also say I am sorry it has taken so long for me to answer, Friday is such a busy day for me.

PECS you ask: allygran do you think the IDF ever attack a 'soft target'?
First I am taking the liberty of changing the question, because in that form you are asking me personally to speculate on something that I cannot possibly know for sure. So the answer would be simple I don't know. But that might be a lost opportunity to do some research, which I have done.

I can have a stab at offering you some discussion based on the definition of terrorism I posted: Allygran1 Fri 03-Aug-18 01:35:07 to OldMeg. First we have to define what sort of organisation IDF is. Research say:
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF; Hebrew: צְבָא הַהֲגָנָה לְיִשְׂרָאֵל‬ Tsva ha-Hagana le-Yisra'el, lit. "The Army of Defense for Israel"; Arabic: جيش الدفاع الإسرائيلي‎), commonly known in Israel by the Hebrew acronym Tzahal (צה״ל‬), are the military forces of the State of Israel.
Israel Defense Forces - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces

This means that they are a legitimate and legal army of a Nation responsible for the defence and security of it’s people. That established we now need to see who this legitimate army defend’s it’s people from. This is where it becomes very complex, since all the usual names of groups that are familiar to us, appear from my research to be entangled and almost impossible in reality to identify although they do have their own separate identity by name only. Some of those organisations are, using the definitions posted to OldMeg: Allygran1 Fri 03-Aug-18 01:35:07 are classified as Terrorist groups, others are classified as a Military wing of a Political organisation, others are legitimate and legal army’s of Nations responsible for the defence and security of it’s people, with a very important distinction from the normal army’s of other Nations in the West, many are Arab Muslim and come together, house and support the Arab Muslim terrorist groups, in the name of religious interfada and jihad.

Having established roughly who is who in the Lavant area of the Middle East and how they function I need you and Trisher to look at this:
Yitzhak Rabin, Bill Clinton, and Yasser Arafat at the Oslo Accords signing ceremony on 13 September 1993
In mid-1993, Israeli and Palestinian representatives engaged in peace talks in Oslo, Norway. As a result, in September 1993, Israel and the PLO signed the Oslo Accords, known as the Declaration of Principles or Oslo I; in side letters, Israel recognized the PLO as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people while the PLO recognized the right of the state of Israel to exist and renounced terrorism, violence and its desire for the destruction of Israel.
The Oslo II agreement was signed in 1995 and detailed the division of the West Bank into Areas A, B, and C. Area A was land under full Palestinian civilian control. In Area A, Palestinians were also responsible for internal security. The Oslo agreements remain important documents in Israeli-Palestinian relations.
2000–05
The Second Intifada forced Israel to rethink its relationship and policies towards the Palestinians. Following a series of suicide bombings and attacks, the Israeli army launched Operation Defensive Shield. ^It was the largest military operation conducted by Israel since the Six-Day War.^[69]
As violence between the Israeli army and Palestinian militants intensified, Israel expanded its security apparatus around the West Bank by re-taking many parts of land in Area A. Israel established a complicated system of roadblocks and checkpoints around major Palestinian areas to deter violence and protect Israeli settlements. However, since 2008, the IDF has slowly transferred authority to Palestinian security forces.[70][71][72]
Israel's then prime minister Ariel Sharon began a policy of disengagement from the Gaza Strip in 2003. This policy was fully implemented in August 2005.[73] Sharon's announcement to disengage from Gaza came as a tremendous shock to his critics both on the left and on the right. A year previously, he had commented that the fate of the most far-flung settlements in Gaza, Netzararem and Kfar Darom, was regarded in the same light as that of Tel Aviv.[74] The formal announcements to evacuate seventeen Gaza settlements and another four in the West Bank in February 2004 represented the first reversal for the settler movement since 1968. It divided his party. It was strongly supported by Trade and Industry Minister Ehud Olmert and Tzipi Livni, the Minister for Immigration and Absorption, but Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom and Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu strongly condemned it. It was also uncertain whether this was simply the beginning of further evacuation.[75]
2006–present
Further information: Iran-Israel proxy conflict
In June 2006, Hamas militants infiltrated an army post near the Israeli side of the Gaza Strip and abducted Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. Two IDF soldiers were killed in the attack, while Shalit was wounded after his tank was hit with an RPG. Three days later Israel launched Operation Summer Rains to secure the release of Shalit.[76] He was held hostage by Hamas, who barred the International Red Crossfrom seeing him, until 18 October 2011, when he was exchanged for 1,027 Palestinian prisoners.[77][78]
In July 2006, Hezbollah fighters crossed the border from Lebanon into Israel, attacked and killed eight Israeli soldiers, and abducted two others as hostages, setting off the 2006 Lebanon War which caused much destruction in Lebanon.[79] A UN-sponsored ceasefire went into effect on 14 August 2006, officially ending the conflict.[80] The conflict killed over a thousand Lebanese and over 150 Israelis,[81][82][83][84][85][86][87] severely damaged Lebanese civil infrastructure, and displaced approximately one million Lebanese[88] and 300,000–500,000 Israelis, although most were able to return to their homes.[89][90][91] After the ceasefire, some parts of Southern Lebanon remained uninhabitable due to Israeli unexploded cluster bomblets.[92]
In the aftermath of the Battle of Gaza, where Hamas seized control of the Gaza Strip in a violent civil war with rival Fatah, Israel placed restrictions on its border with Gaza and ended economic cooperation with the Palestinian leadership based there. Israel and Egypt have imposed a blockade of the Gaza Strip since 2007. Israel maintains the blockade is necessary to limit Palestinian rocket attacks from Gaza and to prevent Hamas from smuggling advanced rockets and weapons capable of hitting its cities.[93]
On 6 September 2007, in Operation Orchard, Israel bombed an eastern Syrian complex which was allegedly a nuclear reactor being built with assistance from North Korea.[94] Israel had also bombedSyria in 2003.
In April 2008, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad told a Qatari newspaper that Syria and Israel had been discussing a peace treaty for a year, with Turkey as a go-between. This was confirmed in May 2008 by a spokesman for Prime Minister Ehud Olmert^^As well as a peace treaty, the future of the Golan Heights is being discussed. ^President Assad said "there would be no direct negotiations with Israel until a new US president takes office.^"[95]
Speaking in Jerusalem on 26 August 2008, then United States Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice criticized Israel's increased settlement construction in the West Bank as detrimental to the peace process. Rice's comments came amid reports that Israeli construction in the disputed territory had increased by a factor of 1.8 over 2007 levels.[96]
A fragile six-month truce between Hamas and Israel expired on 19 December 2008;[97] attempts at extending the truce failed amid accusations of breaches from both sides.[98][99][100][101] Following the expiration, Israel launched a raid on a tunnel suspected of being used to kidnap Israeli soldiers, which killed several Hamas fighters.[102] Following this, Hamas resumed rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli cities, most notably firing over 60 rockets on 24 December. On 27 December 2008, Israel launched Operation Cast Lead against Hamas. Numerous human rights organizations accused Israel and Hamas of committing war crimes.[103]
In 2009 Israel placed a 10-month settlement freeze on the West Bank. Then United States Secretary of State Hillary Clinton praised the freeze as an "unprecedented" gesture that could "help revive Middle East talks."[104][105]
A raid was carried out by Israeli naval forces on six ships of the Gaza Freedom Flotilla in May 2010[106] after the ships refused to dock at Port Ashdod. On the MV Mavi Marmara, activists clashed with the Israeli boarding party. During the fighting, nine activists were killed by Israeli special forces. Widespread international condemnation of and reaction to the raid followed, Israel–Turkey relations were strained, and Israel subsequently eased its blockade on the Gaza Strip.[107][108][109][110] Several dozen other passengers and seven Israeli soldiers were injured,[108] with some of the commandos suffering from gunshot wounds.[111][112]
Following the latest round of peace talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, 13 Palestinian militant movements led by Hamas initiated a terror campaign designed to derail and disrupt the negotiations.[113] Attacks on Israelis have increased since August 2010, after 4 Israeli civilians were killed by Hamas militants. Palestinian militants have increased the frequency of rocket attacks aimed at Israelis. On 2 August, Hamas militants launched seven Katyusha rockets at Eilat and Aqaba, killing one Jordanian civilian and wounding 4 others.[114]
Intermittent fighting continued since then, including 680 rocket attacks on Israel in 2011.[115] On 14 November 2012, Israel killed Ahmed Jabari, a leader of Hamas's military wing, launching Operation Pillar of Cloud.[116] Hamas and Israel agreed to an Egyptian-mediated ceasefire on 21 November.[117]
The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights said that 158 Palestinians were killed during the operation, of which: 102 were civilians, 55 were militants and one was a policeman; 30 were children and 13 were women.[118][119] B'Tselem stated that according to its initial findings, which covered only the period between 14 and 19 November 102 Palestinians were killed in the Gaza Strip, 40 of them civilians. According to Israeli figures, 120 combatants and 57 civilians were killed.[120] International outcry ensued, with many criticizing Israel for what much of the international community perceived as a disproportionately violent response.[121] Protests took place on hundreds of college campuses across the U.S., and in front of the Israeli consulate in New York.[122] Additional protests took place throughout the Middle East, throughout Europe, and in parts of South America.[122] However, the governments of the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Germany, France, Australia, Belgium, Bulgaria, Czech Republic and Netherlands expressed support for Israel's right to defend itself, and/or condemned the Hamas rocket attacks on Israel.[123][124][125][126][127][128][129][130][131][132][133]
Following an escalation of rocket attacks by Hamas, Israel started an operation in the Gaza Strip on 8 July 2014.[134]
Israel's military role in the Syrian Civil War has been limited to missile strikes,[135][136] which until 2017 were not officially acknowledged. While the Israeli official position is neutrality in the conflict, Israel is opposed to Iran's presence in Syria.[137] Israel has provided humanitarian aid to Syrian war victims, an effort that was drastically geared up since June 2016 when the Operation Good Neighbour was launched by the Israeli military. There are many different national interests playing a role in the war^^One of them is ^Iran, which Israel is concerned could gain too much regional influence. Iranian proxies such as Hezbollah are suspected of carrying out attacks against Israeli positions on the borders to Syria and Lebanon, and Israel is suspected of carrying out air strikes against convoys transporting weapons to such organisations.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bill_Clinton,_Yitzhak_Rabin,_Yasser_Arafat_at_the_White_House_1993-09-13.jpg

So I guess the answer to your question about “soft” targets, depends on what is regarded as a “soft” target. Illegal indiscriminate terrorists like Hamas attacking civilians and civil police, politicians etc, are definitely nor 'soft' targets. A legitimate force defending it’s people, against terrorists groups based on the definition posted to OldMeg I would say is legitimate by defininition. If you regard Hamas and any of the other Israel attackers as ‘soft target” for Israel's retaliation that is your conclusion.

There is another aspect for Trisher which is to answer her question about the size of Israel’s armed service including reserves who will be anyone who served as a conscript who is eligible.

www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2018/02/26/ten-strongest-military-forces-middle-east/#77b1871016a2

www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/04/24/the-top-15-countries-for-military-expenditure-in-2016-infographic/#13cdce1b43f3
Syria
Active personnel: 142,500
Algeria
Active personnel: 130,000
Saudi Arabia
Active personnel: 227,000

Iran
Active personnel: 523,000
Israel
Active personnel: 176,500
Egypt
Active personnel: 438,500
Turkey
Active personnel: 355,800

Since the PLO and PLA particularly cannot be separated from Syria, Iran, Egypt, and Lebanon it is impossible to accurately say how many fight under the PLA banner from other Arab Muslim Country’s or indeed how may PLA fight under the banner of the Nations mentioned above. However looking at the figures, I might take a guess that, at any time the main protagonists could muster enough legitimate armed forces to wipe out Israel. The resulting International outcry is all that keep’s that from happening in my view.

There is information available to identify how well armed these Country’s are in Forbes.

Since we have wandered off the thread, if you want a discussion about Palestinian 'refugee's' may I suggest you start a new thread. Instead of blaming Israel for their plight from action taken just short of seventy years ago, rather than asking why are second and third and possibly fourth generation Arab Muslim Palestinians not absorbed into largely Arab Muslim communities and Country's across the Levant? That's the issue, that's the question.

PECS Fri 03-Aug-18 20:44:43

Can you give me the link to that article please?

PECS Are you not concerned about extremists on the left and the right. This thread has been discussing far left extreme views about Jewish people and Israel in the Labour Party and the persecution of those in that Party who stand up against antisemitism.

There is a thought that at the extreme view of the left and the right both become fascist in pursuit of their ideology. We see this developing with far left Momentum with people who oppose antisemitism in the Labour Party being reportedly violently shouted down, 'dissed' (I think that is the word) on tweets, and other social media, in an attempt to discredit, paralyse them, stop them speaking, put them in fear. That is fascism.

PECS your post:

However, given the unprecedented coverage they’ve given to Labour’s ongoing issues surrounding antisemitism, it seems slightly odd that the same people have offered nothing but eerie silence regarding the fact that three top Conservative politicians have been exposed holding secret meetings with an openly racist White Supremacist neo-Nazi leader who is accused of outright antisemitism, and whose supporters were recorded chanting “Jews will not replace us“. Very odd indeed

Where is the link to this PECS please?. Do you know who these Conservative politicians are and can you tell me the names of the White Supremacist neo-Nazi leader. Thanks.

PECS you say:

Robinson’s imprisonment last May for being in contempt of court sparked protests in several cities in Europe and America. It was later discovered that a notorious hard-line, pro-Israel conservative think tank was paying his legal costs.

Can you tell me which notorious hard-line pro-Israel conservative think tank was paying the legal costs for this man?

Lemongrove is so right this chap Robinson needs some heavy duty help!! PECS surely you can see that!

I will look up the links tomorrow but actually the Breibart links have been reported in the FT. Guardian, Independent& Mirror & Middle East Monitor. ..so if you Google you will find it all there. It is not from some unverifiable source. What exactly do you mean TR needs help? He is a dangerous man being feted by the far right all o er US & Europe. Do you not read the papers? You accuse Corbyn's supportes of dismissing things too lightly... I think you need to wske up and smell the fascists!

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/22/us-rightwing-groups-bankroll-campaign-to-free-tommy-robinson

Please I really don't need history lessons on Palestine /Israel. It is part of me.

So he has paid supporters PECS

What???

PECS you asked me the question. I attempted to answer it with balance and information.

My psychic abilities are not fully honed yet, otherwise I should have picked up on the fact that Palestine/Israel as you say is part of you. However, you might find a nugget or two of information/history that you might have once dismissed that you are now willing to consider.

So I take it your not going to put up a thread about the reasons why the Arab Muslim Palestinian descendent of people displaced almost 70 years ago, have not been absorbed into Arab Muslim Country's (where most are living in camps) across the Levant? Is this not of concern to you? Surely it is of concern to some organisation like the UN or even the Arab Muslims indigenous to the Countries where the Palestinian Arab Muslims have been resident for so long, in fact in many cases three generations have been born in their host Country. The spotlight needs to be shone on this in the Western world, we are being pointed in the wrong direction I fear. I suspect in the Levant, there is a lot more animosity between the Palestinian Arab Muslim and the indigenous Arab Muslim than the West is aware of. It is not as straight forward as our extreme left wing elite activist would like it to be I suspect.

PECS I have got-it, that TR is a 'dangerous' and I would add extremist man. The response was to Lemongroves 'nutter'......heavy duty help! Oh never mind.

Allygran1 Fri 03-Aug-18 22:00:35
PECS you say:

Robinson’s imprisonment last May for being in contempt of court sparked protests in several cities in Europe and America. It was later discovered that a notorious hard-line, pro-Israel conservative think tank was paying his legal costs.

I asked:
Can you tell me which notorious hard-line pro-Israel conservative think tank was paying the legal costs for this man?
You sent a link to the Guardian Article which clarified that it was a US Think Tank not sure where you got the pro Israeli bit from.
Not quite accurate to the Guardian report.

Also you say in a different post:

This episode further highlights the embrace of Europe’s fascists by the current Israeli government. Earlier this month the prime minister of Hungary, denounced by Hungarian Jews for running an anti-Sematic campaign, was hosted by Prime Minister of Israel Benjamin Netanyahu. ^Critics have pointed out that there exists a dangerous “unholy alliance between Israel and alt-right ideologues^”.

Are you seriously attempting to align the Jews, the PM of Israel with fascism? Really, really are you saying that the Jews are embracing fascism? It is so counter intuitive it is unbelievable, and appears completely off the wall! This is so extreme that it is abhorrent, and no doubt any Jew who read that would be highly offended.

Has it occurred to you that the PM of Israel might have been discussing the concerns of Jews in Hungary about the Hungarian PM's antisemitic campaign? Or even trade. This is an abhorrent suggestion PECS.

Can you tell me who the "^Critics^" are who point out this is an "^unholy alliance between Israel and alt-right ideologues^"

You really should put up your source when making such outrageous and offensive claims of this nature. What is the source and who are the 'critics" please. I need to be clear where this is coming from.

My cousins are fully integrated into Jordanian society as are many other Palestinians forced out of their homes in 47. I think you will find that the refugees still stuck in refugee camps are from more recent conflicts. Jordan is not a wealthy country and has huge numbers of refugees...far higher than here for example. But I am not sure why this is relevant to your arguments?

Why is it so outrageous? Jews are just people. They can be good, bad or in between exactly the same as any other people. They are not untouchable or some kind of holy cow that nobody is allowed to criticise if they do wrong. Netanyahu is a very right wing politician. Just do your own research if you are really interested in finding a more balanced view. You won't believe anything I say if I am part Palestinian. If I was Jewish though....

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/netanyahu-orb-n-israel-welcome-hungary-prime-minister-antisemitism-a8454866.html

PECS that is not the case. Your Palestinian origins are of no concern to me nor would they be if you were a Jew.

This is not what this thread is about. The reason that I have been on this thread is because it is unacceptable that Jewish members of the Labour Party are being treated badly, and those who support them in their complaint are also being bullied, persecuted, through deflection and generally isolated at local and National level.

The fact that Corbyn clearly supports Hamas, which I believe is a terrorist group, and I think that is an Internationally held view too, that he support's terrorist groups like the IRA and has done for over three decades, and his general attitude towards those in his Parliamentary party who have made antisemitic comments is one of ignore it it will fade into the background eventually. Well it isn't because it is unacceptable.

Now if the same was happening to Palestinians although there is not a word like antisemitism to use, although Islamaphobia might be one word, but that does not seem to apply to the Palestinian Arab Muslim for some reason that I can't identify immediately why it doesn't I will have to think about that. However I would oppose that just as vigorously.

The only reason I question your post's is that once an omission is noticed, it make's me question the posters motives that is all.

What I find difficult to take in, is the hatred for Israel, when clearly searching for facts and information, there are so many issues, going back 2000 years or more, in that part of the World.

What bothers me particularly is the fact that so many Palestinians who were born in the camps, see the camps as permanent residences,as does the rest of the World. This cannot be right. This is the real issue for me, and it does not seem to be being addressed, in favour of fighting or blaming the Israeli's.

Now it may be that you can explain that. I am coming to it with a very Western view, you are looking at it from a Palestinian Levant view, and historic embedded one, I understand that. But you must see that for me it is illogical to not have addressed the 'elephant in the room" the Palestinian camps in 70 years. Clearly there are more people in those camps now than the original refugees of 1949. In my view after 70 years people are no longer refugees. The whole matter needs addressing.

But as I suggested in an earlier post, maybe if you want to discuss and enlighten and be enlightened on the subject of the Palestinian camps, and the reasons that they are still there after 70 years, then maybe another thread might be worth considering.