Deal or No Deal

I wish I shared your optimism Sunny It isn't shared by any health professionals or scientists I have spoken to. Being reliant on trade with China and the USA sounds disastrous, but never mind, Theresa May will give us UK only queues at the airports so we can wave our blue passports to our heart's content. Apparently this is a "tangible benefit"!!!

Petra
From Michael Burrage, Harvard Economist.
exports by the uk to 111 countries outside the eu under WTO rules grew by 2.9% between 1993-2015.
this was more than 3 times greater than the 0.9% growth in exports to eu countries in the same period and 1% higher than the trade with the 62 countries which have trade agreements with the eu
These are figures that 'they' don't want you to know.
These are the figures that prove we will be better off outside the eussr.

I don't get it - if we were able to do this as members of the EU, how does this show that we will be better off out of it?
But it's late, and I haven't slept well all week, so maybe I am overlooking something obvious!

Sunny
We're not doing too bad.
This is from: This Is Money, financial website of the year.
Dated Sep2017
There are over 3,000 more jobs in financial and insurance companies in the second quarter of 2017 compared *to the time of the Brexit vote*
Goldman Sachs is building a vast new office in London the size of 18 football pitches
Deutsche has also signed up for a massive new London HQ

Whether you voted in or out (I voted in, though not wholeheartedly), I doubt anybody realised what an absolute shambles this government would make of the negotiations and how little progress would have been made at this late stage. I think there is enough evidence now to demonstrate that leaving the EU will cause all sorts of problems. Jacob Rees Mogg apparently said that it could take up to 50 years for the UK to benefit from leaving the EU. That might give pause for thought for some people but, as a very wealthy man, probably not much of a problem for him.

The fact is this government can't even run this country with any degree of competence - the contracting out of large chunks of the probation service has been described as a "monumental failure", just the latest in a long line of monumental failures this government has presided over.

But never mind, while the parliamentary recess is on and the Brexit shambles is not in focus, we'll instead turn our attention to a politically motivated campaign about supposed rampant anti-semitism in the Labour Party.

I said on a thread yesterday ( and it’s worth repeating) why are a few posters giving credit to what JRM thinks/says....
Or do they really believe he has special clairvoyant powers?

As for ‘this government’ doing badly with negotiations, it’s a shame that Corbyn isn’t in charge because he would have the EU eating out of his hand and would do so well....(falls off chair laughing.)

As for your last paragraph Eloethan... the least said the better!

Politicaly motivated campaign? That is so wrong, the anti semetics in the Labour Party said what they said, no lies ,

If it swims, walks, squarks like a duck ?

It is really worrying that there seems to be little in the way of actual governing going on. Both major parties are tearing themselves apart. I suspect we are going to have a GE soon, all the signs are there; bribery ( payrises for public sector/potholes being filled in/cash for NHS) but just who do I vote for? Who will represent the huge minority who voted to remain in the EU? A minority which I believe is now a majority by the way, as bit by bit the truth is revealed. The Tory party is generally a Remain party, but in the stranglehold of a handful of fervent maniacal Brexit supporters, the Labour party is a disaster with a leader who didn't even have the courtesy to nail his colours to either mast. I can't be the only one in this situation as there was 48% of us. As for doing business with China and USA......doesn't anyone read the news?

Vote for the Liberal Democrats, Gill. They are the only party who represent your views.

Yes I generally do Varian and I fail to see why they are regularily mocked and sneered at in the HoC. Those of us who are very concerned about the future and do not take great comfort in patriotic flim flam or blue passports are sorely unrepresented, even though we are a massive minority. I also fail to see why the BBC gives such extensive cover to what Jacob Rees-Mogg says; he is only a backbencher, one of many and the fact that he has not achieved office within his own party is telling. Was it Gordon Brown who talked of a 'government of the talents'? We could do with one now. We have neither effective government party not effective opposition and it is a bloody disgrace.

A great pity that the British press can only think in terms of two parties at once. At local level both the Tories and Labour are often more wary of the Lib Dems than of one another, that’s where the ignoring largely comes from. The LD vote in council by-elections is impressive.

Yes it is here winterwhite. Despite a Tory in a very safe seat in HoC, the local elections are usually very different with a mix of parties and often the LibDems as the majority party. This is getting serious folks, and nobody is doing much about it.

Voters don’t vote for the Libs in a General Election since they went in coalition with the tories , I think votes will come back for them but it will take time, it took labour 14 years to win back the majority vote after the 1983 election.

Winterwhite
I think you'll find that both party's are more worried about the rise in the support for UKIP.
After the referendum and the general election UKIP members went back to either the conservatives or labour.
But now they're going back to UKIP because of the chequers white paper, they don't agree with it.

The Liberal Democrats did put country before party when they reluctantly entered a coalition government with the Tories in 2010.

I was one of many LD party members who had soent many years opposing the Tories and would have been much more able to accept a Lib/Lab coalition.

However we accepted it and for 5 years we gritted our teeth and tried to console ourselves with the good policies that our party were able to enact and, even more importantly, the number of dreadful Tory policies which were blocked.

Of course we never got any credit for that and lost out because of Tory skullduggery and the venial right-wing press, but history may take a different view

I have often wondered how it was that the LibDems took the pasting for the bad policies of the previous election. Yes, the turn around on student fees was a shocker, but to be honest there have been worse. I suspect there is some sort of protocol which prevents honest speaking, but I would have liked to hear Clegg stand up and admit to the student fees fiasco (which he did) but also point out the dreadful policies they had prevented through being in coalition. It makes me mad when Tories bleat on about the increased personal tax allowances when most people are aware that this was forced through by the LibDems under Tory protest. Desperate times ( now) call for desperate measures so I would love to see someone from LibDems tell the truth about the coalition years which cost them so much, and point out that only they are the Remain party. As for Labour voters turning to UKIP, do they not realise what they are voting for? How can they go from left to extreme right, or does it not matter as long as the immigrants and/or the EU can be blamed and scapegoated for everything which is wrong in their lives.

Are LD voters aware that Nick Clegg has had a change of heart Re immigration.
From the FT 18 June 2018.
The belief that freedom of movement is an untouchable principle cannot remain unchallenged
A bit different to 2014 when he said:
I want to be unequivocal: freedom of movement between eu members states is a good thing. It's a cornerstone of European integration

Is there a British constitution? Written down?
Some of us remember the Britain we had before we joined the EU. The country was in an awful mess and now it is awaiting us once more. We just can't exist alone without the wealth of an Empire behind us.
I hope we make a deal-any deal and stay connected.
China and the US have made it quite clear that they are interested in a deal with the EU, after all the paperwork is done already and then all those lovely cars waiing to be imported.

The thing I can’t get my head around is why anyone thinks we have any say over the final outcome. We are one nation trying to leave a group of over 20 who have each been given a veto to use if necessary. By voting for Brexit this daft population has given the EU the power to determine what happens. It would have been far better to stay and fight to change the organisation from within because other countries wanted change as well. We threw our chance away.

It seems to me we have a shambolic, divided party in government and an opposition not worthy of the name. You really couldn't make it up!

Vivian 123, Wed 01-Aug-18 23:39:15

We have history, Belgium and the EU do not. Let's take back what is ours and let's get on with it quickly. We have a great future ahead of us. Project fear and the doom mongers will be proved wrong. Rule Britannia!

I was left speechless by this. Is this the thinking that lies behind the so called 'democratic' leave-result of the referendum? The 14 million voters' right to jeopardize the future of 66 million people? Vivian, you predict that Project fear will be proved wrong. Let's hope your Project Hubris will be proved right.

Greta
Wrong No. nearer to 17.5 million.

The 14 million voters you refer too Greta and I was one of them didn't vote to "jeopardize the future of 66 million people* they voted for what they believed was the best way forward.

The result of the referendum wasn't "so called democratic" it was democratic and the undemocratic rhetoric is coming from remainers who refuse to accept the result.

Petra, I apologize: 17. 5 million.

Smileless, I don't know how we can call a process 'democratic' when it is based on lies and scaremongering; on both sides.

Lies and scaremongering has been the stuff of our 'democratic' process for generations. The difference being that formerly the lies and scaremongering have been in the whole public domain and open for all to see and to make their judgements on. With the rise of social media and the targetting of information only to individuals who are carefully selected on their likelihood of being most influenced by it the lies and scaremongering are now not open for all to see. The HOC Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee Has released adverts placed on Facebook during the Referendum campaign:

These are the ones used by Vote Leave/BeLeave:

www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/culture-media-and-sport/Fake_news_evidence/Brexit-Central-BeLeave-Ads.pdf

There are also lists of those posted by two other organisations which can be accessed here;

www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/culture-media-and-sport/Fake_news_evidence/Ads-supplied-by-Facebook-to-the-DCMS-Committee.pdf

I wonder how many of you who are on Facebook saw any of these ads?

Of course, if you're not on Facebook there would have been no chance that you could have seen any of them.

Please don't anyone try to tell me that they are not influenced by advertising. It's a £billion business and hard headed businessmen running every imaginable kind of enterprise would not have huge advertising budgets if advertising had no effect.

The other point about the Referendum Campaign is that a number of the Leave organisations have been found to break the laws which regulate election expenses; to the extent that details of their lawbreaking have been passed to the police.

These laws are in place to ensure that elections (and referendum campaigns) are run fairly without cheating by any party. I note with horror that some Leavers are claiming that the Electoral commission was biased in its judgement. This is appalling. To cast doubt on the probity of the instruments of government can only lead to destabilization and anarchy.