Bullying Remainers

I've never before had complete strangers hurl abuse at me which is what has happened since the referendum. This country is now at war with itself and I fear for the future....[by the way, I'm not aware of remainers hurling abuse at people in the street but stand to be corrected if anyone has had this happen to them].

Which laws have been “overturned by Brussels”?
Have we lost our “whole identity”? In what way?We still speak English/ eat fish n chips/ have the same flag/ same useless electoral system/ political parties / as infinitum
Such sweeeping generalisations/ beliefs have got us into this current mess

Trying to compare the result of a general election to the referendum is ompletely ludicrous. All the way through a Parliament ( and even more so when the majority is small) compromises and concessions are made re the aspirations that were in the manufesto. Some things in the manifesto never happen, some things happen that were not in the manifesto. Circumstances change and governments have to respond. There is a process of iteration for the duration of the Parliament. How on Earth is this the same thing as the referendum result?. In some ways a GE isn’t accepted by everyone because pressure groups,lobbyists etc will fight a manifesto commitment once the Government starts to legislate on it and often a Government will also begin to realise that they will have to compromise and/ or there were issues that hadn’t been considered in the bald manifesto promise. This is how democracy works. With the referendum result once we’ve left we can’t realistically change that can we as we go along as we do after a GE.

Bank queue with TV on rolling news with latest Brexit u turn, one ( mixed race English) woman turned to the person next to her and said “ This is such a waste of time and money”, the other woman agreed. Elderly ( white ) woman in front of them turned round and said “ if you don’t like it you can go back where you came from”.
Another incident - young British Asian woman serving in a shop berated by older British man for the wait who said “ I voted to get rid of people like you”. I know these are low level incidents but they are seemingly commonplace and acceptable now. And people talk about “bullying remainers” . I hope the leavers on here feel comfortable being associated with people like the above.

Varian. The distinct impression I get is that although around half the country want to stay in the EU very few are actively campaigning.
My own 23 yr old grandson voted leave, why, to send all those f@@&ing foreigners home, this is the mentality that a very large section of the leave voters have. MPs are no better, a very large majority wanted to remain before the referendum, now of course they have changed and are "reflecting voters wishes".

I am thinking the probable least worst outcome is for Corbyn to take over in league with Sturgeon and agree a very soft deal. Not a palatable option but TM ( or whoever ) is going to loose a vote of no confidence, there is one spark of hope though. The SNP may insist on a second vote, labour will accept that as a price for support.

The current mess is just the start, trade negotiations begin in April after Brexit day, they are going to be just as acrimonious, every sector will be fought tooth and nail. Or at least attempted the EU hold all the cards, we will end up with an EFTA deal, no more.

David I 'd be interested to know how you think Corbyn could work in league with Sturgeon.
There was a suggestion that Ruth D should become Tory leader but it was explained why she couldn't (apart from simply not wanting to).

I have read and 'enjoyed' reading the very thought- provoking debate on this thread. It has made me rethink some aspects of the situation we now face. I remain a remainer, as to leave without a good deal will affect and is already affecting my family a great deal.

But the comment which took my breath away is Luckyleg's9 writing... 'I am not worried about my grandchildren as they will have no choice.'

The young stand to lose the most. That they have no choice and that the choices we have enjoyed will be taken away, makes me very fearful for our young people. The young are our future.

I'm afraid that sentence really upset me- it is because they have no choice- that we should have chosen very carefully what is best for their future.

I chose to remain------for my GGC's futures. To leave would be disastrous for them and other children facing a future of uncertainty.
Economically we have to weigh up what's best and as I see it although things are tough now they'll be a jolly sight tougher " on our own " as a country without the backing from the EU.
The cost of staying in is minimal against the whole worth of this country and will only be a fraction compared to the help and support in every way ( should there be a war ) that our European neighbours would provide.
Stop the hostilities and accept what is best for this SMALL country.

crystal that is really worrying but not the first time I have heard or seen the same. I wonder just how many people voted Leave because they didn't want 'brown people' in the UK? I got into a debate with a friend of a friend on Facebook during the referendum and it was clear that his whole reason for voting Leave was brown people. Eventually I asked him which EU country he thought they all came from. Didn't hear from him again! There are times, not many, when I think that perhaps we should take some sort of test before being allowed to vote in a referendum so at least we can prove we have some small idea of what it is about. This is the reason I think we should have another vote so at least people will be told what they are actually voting for and not a whole load of unrealistic claims.

Smileless your comment "And if the vote went the same way, would you accept it? I very much doubt it." assuming you know anything about me is a recurrent theme of Leavers. You have no idea what I would do in the event of a second vote going the same way as the first, I have said nothing to give you any reason for that arrogant assumption.

I'm afraid it seems that Leavers only act like this because they don't have good enough arguments to back up their attitude of 'I voted this way, I am right, I'm sticking with it regardless of any proof I made a mistake, I'm not listening because I am right whether or not I am right, I've got my head in the sand'. Yes, that sound harsh and I'm sure it doesn't apply to all Leavers but it does seem that they don't have a good argument for leaving whatever the outcome.

Yes- leavers here have said again and again that immigration, and in particular those of very different ethnic groups- was not their motivation. And I trust that for many, that is the case.

But it is clear that it was, for a great many- and UKIP posters were disgustingly racist (reminded me of those by the extreme right in Switzerland ).

But back to the title, I am still not sure if it is 'bullying remainers' or 'bullying remainers'. These are the real bullying leavers and traitors at the moment:

www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46243745?fbclid=IwAR1WgLsu-Oi3_5-2T7ses_EBYkNl1Aipm9El7ShGPzU14ERf5dr68Q1W9x4

It isn't an arrogant assumption nonnie, it's an assumption in the same way that your post makes assumptions about Leavers.

I think the blustering unwillingness to discuss a second, more informed vote and a sudden touching belief in democracy as observed in many Brexit supporters says a lot about the situation. By more informed I am not inferring that Brexit supporters are ill-informed, more that we all know more now than we did in June 2016, can't really see why this is such a problem?

No Smileless I have not made any 'assumptions' my comments are based on my observations, On what observation did you make that comment about me? If this is the level of 'debate' is it any wonder so many of us are worried about the future?

Sturgeon. If there is a GE, Corbyn would need to gain 80 seats to have an absolute majority, that is unlikely, in addition the SNP will probably increase their MPs as well.

My perception is that Labour and the SNP are fairly close on idealogy, they could work together and solve the Brexit issues. Brexit aside it would be a real economic disaster but it is a scenario that may happen, who else would join Corbyn?, DUP? Lib Dems?.

Or am I the only one that has considered what a general election will mean.

So if we have another referendum and it goes in favour of Remain, will we slide effortlessly back to where we were pre 2015 or face months, maybe years of more negotiations?

If Leave wins again we will still face more of the current argy bargy so whatever we decide, the future looks like it's going to be full of argument, indecision and back stabbing - not to mention another general election and the last three years will have been a total waste of time.

Thanks a lot, David Cameron

merlot D Tusk said a couple of days ago that we could just stop the whole thing. I think he meant that we could go back to where we were before the referendum so there would be no need for more negotiations. What would we all moan about then there would be a vacuum!

I see your point merlot, but as a remainer I would be happier to accept the result if it was leave again if it was based on more facts and less emotion this time. I do think though that it will take a long long time to get over this, even if as I hope, the whole sorry thing gets cancelled. Many people who voted to leave for reasons unconnected to the EU ( poor local economy, poor housing etc) will still have the same problems and will still be disregarded by most politicians, and there is no getting away from the fact that Brexit has lifted several stones and some rather nasty racists have crawled out. Britain has become a far worse place since this vote and Cameron has got a lot to answer for.

I thought that was your theory david but as an MSP (Holyrood and Scottish Parliament) First Minister Sturgeon cannot form an alliance with JC in Westminster.
The leader of the SNP MPs in Westminster is Ian Blackford who could and well might co-operate with JC and others . If it hadn't been for May's wheeling and dealing with DUP then SNP, as the 3rd party in HoC, might well have held the balance of power!

For similar reasons, Ruth D can't be Tory leader/PM as she is not a Westminster MP.
(Besides she's currently coping with the vital job of looking after her infant son!)

We,of the older generation have had our lives it's time for us to think of the futures of our GC and GGC.

Merlotgran leave or remain we'll still face 10/20 years of negotiatons.

Liverpool's leavers voted 41.8% while remainers were 58.2%.
Surprised ? No because the city has lived with immigrants for years due to it having a port which was familiar with the arrivals of foreigners coming to settle and find employment so people like this don't " frighten " us. Those living in the sticks and who are housed in the leafy suburbs of this country are the ones most likely to vote leave-----through ignorance of not knowing/realising who provides their fresh food on the table. Immigrant workers are vital to the country and it's neither their fault nor that of the EU that we have become swamped. The fault lies with the politicians ( useless individuals ) sitting behind their gated communities inviting all and sundry to make it look as though they are the benevolent party forgetting one thing------no checks on any of them for their eligibility to provide for themselves e.g housing,work,medical needs------the list goes on.
It is NOT the fault of the EU that we have s many immigrants !

We in the North West were the " poor relations " of this country up until the '90's when the EU stepped in after MT's demise from Parliament when she gave up on Liverpool and the Labour council made a pigs ear of everything. I shudder to think what would have happened if the city hadn't been salvaged and this is exactly what will happen to run-down towns/cities if we do away with the EU. Where will the money come from ??

Ignore immigration for the time being as the most important feature in this debacle is the economy of this country.

The reason we have austerity homelessness and poverty at present is the badly run finance department of this government----again,nothing to do with the EU.
With talk about cost being in the EU nobody has yet mentioned the billions going out in foreign aid. India for instance costs us millions---they don't need it ! Their economy is one of the fastest as at one time it overtook China so why are we still sending billions to a country which is sustainable ?

There will always be more questions than answers in a country such as ours where we'll never get things right.

Ellan "leave or remain we'll still face 10/20 years of negotiatons." why would there be negotiations if we simply drop Brexit? D Tusk said we could and he didn't mention renegotiating. I think that may just be something Leavers use to scare us.

My comments are also based on observation nonnie.

You don't have too of course, but as you appear to be upset at my arrogance in assuming that you wouldn't accept the result of a second referendum if it were also to leave, I'm wondering why you haven't stated that you would.

I'll re-phrase negotiations with arguing Nonnie as that seems what our politicians do best.

I've never known so much yapping among politicians as there has been over the years------and nothing done !. Reminds me of the old adage of Rome burning while Nero fiddled which is exactly what's happened constantly.
Or the other old saying,empty vessels etc etc.
Actions always spoke louder than words in my book.
BTW has Cameron moved back under the stone he crawled out of ? Where is he and his grovelling apologies for all this ?