What next?

Maisie No I am not clairvoyant. Do called experts get it wrong all the time. The chattering masses express their feelings and are not listened to, that is what happened with our Brexit vote, the government had not listened. There is discord in Germany and France, if we go, it will start a domino effect. Easy bee at the beginning of this post, summed it up in a few lines succinctly put. I do notice how some posters if they haven't a valid argument resort tocynical sarcasm!

So called exoerts not Do called, sorry.

I do notice how some posters if they haven't a valid argument resort tocynical sarcasm!

I've spent over two years putting facts and valid arguments on this forum. They are very rarely responded to by Leavers. A bit of cynical sarcasm acts as light relief.

And I still don't understand why Leavers' predictions are held to be the absolute truth while Remainers (usually quoting experts in the field) are sneered at as speculation. Well, I do understand why they are, because Leavers don't like facts and experts, but it doesn't make Leavers' fortune telling any more valid.

Junkers State of the Union Address 2017

" And I want us to dedicate further efforts to defence matters. A new European Defence Fund is in the offing. As is a Permanent Structured Cooperation in the area of defence. By 2025 we need a fully-fledged European Defence Union. We need it. And NATO wants it."
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www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-emmanuel-macron-eu-army-to-complement-nato/
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www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-army-angela-merkel-macron-germany-france-military-european-commission-juncker-a8633196.html

The European Commission has said it is “delighted” that the leaders of France and Germany have backed the creation of a “real” EU army.

A spokesperson for the commission’s president Jean-Claude Juncker said he was “pleased” that the argument for the force seemed to be “going in our direction”.

Addressing the European Parliament on Tuesday Angela Merkel said she supported a “real, true” European army, echoing an identical call by her French counterpart Emmanuel Macron the week before.

Angela Merkel calls for creation of ‘real, true’ EU army
Speaking on Wednesday, the commission’s spokesperson tried to attribute credit for the idea to Mr Juncker, noting that he had previously endorsed such a force.

“Let me clarify that the first one who spoke about the EU army four years ago was someone called Jean-Claude Juncker,” they said.

“Memory is short nowadays in Brussels and the capitals but people here present, you are aware of who launched this idea.”

The spokesperson added: “We are delighted that both the president of the French republic and the German chancellor, with a few days interval, publicly backed this idea."
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Comment by NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg on EU Army.

www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_160495.htm

" But I have been equally clear about the fact that EU efforts
must not compete with NATO, must not duplicate NATO, because NATO remains the bedrock for European security. We have to remember that after Brexit 80% of NATO’s defence expenditure will come from non-EU NATO Allies. And 3 of the four battlegroups we have deployed in the eastern part of the Alliance, in the Baltics countries and Poland will be led by non-EU Allies. And also geography matters. Norway in the North, and Turkey in the South, and Canada, USA and UK in the West are important for European security. So geography and money, these are facts which we cannot ignore."

I have watched and read so much information that there has been a distinct desire by the EU Commission to have an EU Army/Defence Force. NATO is not as pro the thought of an EU Army/Defence Force as some would believe.

I cannot make a decision if ' PESCO ' The Permanent Structured Cooperation will in time prove to be a force for good as hoped or another avenue further down the line for what we think of as an EU Army.

I've just seen a picture on facebook of some 'yellow jackets' with a KKK banner doing Nazi salutes. What is happening to this country terrifies me.

Before the referendum in 2016, Remain was supported by all the UK political parties - Conservative, Labour, Liberal Democrat, Green, SNP, Plaid Cymru and others except for UKIP, BNP, DUP and some other extreme rightwing groups.

If I had been dithering about which way to vote, I think that one fact would have been enough to make me see that I certainly did not want to be in the latter camp.

I can’t believe that some posters are still in denial about the EU being proactive about the prospect of an EU Army, backed by Germany and France.
The France/Germany led EU is quite serious about wanting it to happen soon.

And, if we were still in the EU I guess we could have been 'proactive' about voting against it ....

Nothing wrong with an army if you are in it.

Varian

"except for UKIP, BNP, DUP and some other extreme rightwing groups.

If I had been dithering about which way to vote, I think that one fact would have been enough to make me see that I certainly did not want to be in the latter camp."
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You are chiming with the remain posters comment/comments about Leavers ' being in bed with racists' are you not.

Basically we are all in denial!!!!

No one is going to get what they wanted!!!!

MP’s and MEP’s lining their pockets!

I guess Cameron got something maybe?

If there was no intention of an eu army, why did Ireland have an opt out Claus of Not joining the army, written into the Lisbon Treaty?
That was allowed on their 2nd time of voting because the first time they got it wrong

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/theresa-may-clip-from-channel-4-news-surfaces-saying-remaining-in-eu-is-better-than-brexit-1-5817136

As reported in the Independent last November: Emmanuel Macron has called for the creation of a “true European army” to allow the EU defend itself from threats ranging from Donald Trump to Vladimir Putin. The French president has pushed for closer EU defence union since coming to power last year but has been so far met with limited success amid foot-dragging by other member states.
“When I see President Trump announcing that he’s quitting a major disarmament treaty which was formed after the 1980s Euro-missile crisis that hit Europe, who is the main victim? Europe and its security.” “We need a Europe which defends itself better alone, without just depending on the United States, in a more sovereign manner.”
The election of Mr Trump to the White House appears to have given more urgency to the cause of boosting the EU’s defence capabilities, with leaders warning they cannot simply rely on the United States.
France is the strongest and most vocal proponent of an EU army but Germany has also tentatively endorsed Mr Macron’s proposals for a joint command structure for military interventions.
A number of proposals have been put on the table for how EU nations could cooperate more closely on defence. The European Commission says closer defence cooperation “is not about creating an EU army”.
Thirty-four joint missions by member states have been launched under the EU flag since 2003 under the Common Security and Defence Policy.
Under the new “Permanent Structured Cooperation” (Pesco) initiative legislated for in 2009 and activated in 2017, 25 of the 28 armed forces are in the process of stepping up cooperation between their militaries. Denmark, Malta and the United Kingdom have decided to opt out of the voluntary system.

So, acting together as a force is not new. France and Germany are the strongest voices, but other states unsure. Countries can opt out.
To my mind, scare stories about an EU army are just that, scare stories, half-truths. Nothing to stop us treating it like the Euro and opting out.

What are the arguments for and against an EU army? In addition of course to ^Pollaidh's* post above.

Nonnie

That's why I started a thread discussing the EU Army argument.

For years we have discussed the EU Army issue, ' PRIOR TO ' the UK Referendum and the subject get's lost when the subject is not specific and posts ramble.

Thanks, haven't seen that thread

POGS I've looked in active but can't find the thread and the search facility still isn't working. Can you post a link please?

Nonnie- the thread is- Merkel clearly calling for an EU Army, hope you can locate it. I found it in “last day”

Government 'should shut down parliament' if MPs delay Brexit, says Jacob Rees-Mogg

news.sky.com/story/government-should-shut-down-parliament-if-mps-delay-brexit-says-jacob-rees-mogg-11615455

Some democrat!

There are at least 4 people on this forum who praise Farage and UKIP. Not one of them is able to say why though?

This week Macron and Merkel have been discussing a European Federal Army.. who knows if they will be conscripting young men and women? I don't like that idea. Britain will not be included in this when we leave. Any thoughts?

Bluejay29
I think you'll find that lots of posters gave their opinion on the eu army on a thread started on 22Jan.

The repercussions for the UK of a no-deal Brexit could be similar to the national emergency faced by Iceland during the volcanic eruptions in 2010 that brought parts of the country to a standstill, according to advice being given to civil servants.

The warning comes from the Cabinet Office, which is coordinating training for thousands of staff across Whitehall to help prepare departments for a disorderly departure from the European Union on 29 March.

The impact on Iceland from the volcanic ash clouds in 2010 is regarded as a useful example of the kind of escalating disruption that could face the UK this spring, according to those who have attended the closed seminars.

Staff have been told to look at the example of the eruptions from Eyjafjallajökull because they caused extensive disruption within Iceland that then reverberated across Europe. In particular, air travel was thrown into turmoil, with hundreds of thousands of people left stranded by cancelled flights.

The Cabinet Office believes this represents the “nearest recent example” of what government departments could have to cope with. But the potential disruption to the UK from Brexit is likely to be much broader, according to the government’s private planning assumptions.

The comparisons, and the lack of detailed preparations at the heart of government, are causing immense disquiet among some rank-and-file civil servants. “The level of planning required for no-deal Brexit is the same level as war planning,” said one Whitehall source. “A no-deal Brexit will have the same systemic impact. Iceland gives us hints and clues about what might happen, but Brexit is unlike anything we have ever seen.”

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/25/cabinet-office-compares-no-deal-brexit-to-iceland-ash-cloud-chaos