What next?

I am happy to admit when I have posted incorrectly (which I did a couple of days ago).

Unfortunately people from opposing points of view can read the same article and come up with a totally different idea of what is meant.

Both sides seem to be so entrenched with no room for reconciliation or meeting half way. This is demonstrated in the H of C’s daily.

I do try to stay away from personal attacks, but have on one occasion posted in defence of another poster who in my opinion was being bullied.

Nonnie: What is wrong with wanting facts and links please?

I think you're fighting a losing battle here. As I see it many Leave voters aren't interested in facts. For them it was a decision based on 'feelings'. Overheard on the bus the other day:" I'm sick and tired of this Brexit malarkey. Why can't we just get out?"

Thank you for reading the link, Urmstongran. I posted it for two reasons. Firstly to show that discussions on here are far more restrained in language and attitudes to Leavers and secondly, that Brexit is causing very real pain, fear and disruption to people's lives so it's no wonder they get quite passionate about it.

I'd really like Leavers to address the second point. The great distress Brexit is causing people.

Did you watch the Big Question on BBC1 yesterday morning (I think that is the name of the prog.) - where the effect social media has on small children, and the bullying involved- and how hard people can be on others?

It made me think that it is not only young children at risk- but older people, even the 'elderly' and in particular those who are isolated, lonely, sick, and therefore more 'vulnerable' to attack. Especially as we have not grown up with social media, and can be very naïve about its use. Some people here give detail about their situation or family which gives me real concern- never mind discussing difficult topics like politics, which affect some in real and profound ways.

I took myself off GN for over 2 months as it was just getting too much in so many ways.

A lot of people say on social media [me included] that they have woken up every day since the referendum with a feeling of dread and that nothing they've seen or heard since has reassured them in any way. I do think that people who voted leave should respect the very real concerns that a lot of us have. I've been in tears reading [and hearing] comments from people living and working in this country that no longer feel valued or wanted. I worry terribly that my children may lose their jobs. My daughter is actually considering moving abroad; something that was never on the cards three years ago. A friend who has always rented here has saved up enough money to buy a small property in France and now sees years of careful planning ruined. Brexit is affecting real people in real ways and yet any concerns are just shrugged off [dare I say ridiculed] by people who think everything will be ok but have no concrete proof that that is correct. And no empathy for people being affected by Brexit.

I suggest, again, that any 'distress' Leave voters may have felt because of being in the EU can have been absolutely minimal compared to what is being felt by Remain voters whose lives and families have been directly and adversely affected by the vote to leave the EU. Also by non-British EU citizens living in the UK (often for several decades) and by British citizens living in the EU.

That is only the beginning Maizie the worst is yet to come. A few weeks back someone on GN was worried that her stocks and shares ISA had gone down. I refrained from telling her it was Brexit related, just said that the FTSE had gone down.

I read your Mumsnet link MaisieD and think the level of debate on here is far higher and more reasoned, on both sides. Some of the MN stuff is just posted for effect IMO. Posters here get carried away sometimes because they feel so strongly, but guess it's better than apathy.

I didn't post it for the quality of debate, Lazigirl. If you want quality you go to the long running Westminstenders threads. I specified my reasons for posting it at 10.28 today.

Yes I've been following one of the long Westminstenders threads - thought it was well informed.

Hello

it is in law ..

we will leave totally

all will be fine

looking forward to the return of GB being away from the EU..dreadful ...

majority..52. %

Oh yes, calm down dearie. So you must be really pleased that they have decided that all checks on lorries and cars from the Continent will no longer be checked.

Diseased cattle, be it TB or Foot and Mouth, dangerous chemicals and drugs, arms and amunition, dogs and cats from puppy farms, wild poached animals, lots of illegal immigrants waiting in Calais and all over the EU for the opportunity - hurrah. Yes- just what you voted for, I am sure. Bravo.

Has being in the EU caused you any real and positive harm, andyc?

jura2, to add to your post @17:53 today, should Britain not stop vehicles coming into the country from the European Union for checks, then tarrifs could not be levied on that freight. So, the EU would collect tarrifs on freight coming from the UK while Britain would not collect tarrifs on freight from the EU.

In that, British exporters to the European Union would be at a huge disadvantage in terms of the cost of their products in the market and would very soon be out of Buisness.

The above is called "taking back control"

A no deal Brexit would basically mean an end to British manufacturing and agriculture. This is according to the economist beloved of the ERG group. Make of that what you will.

Ah but Grandad it seems the idea is to trust them to do all the 'paperwork' in advance and pay the duties at a later date. That's all right then, we can rely on total honesty. No checks open boarders. That's the 'total control of our borders' people voted for! Couldn't make it up.

From The Times 3 days ago. I've copied the whole thing as I think you have to subscribe to read it.

[[BREXIT
Brexit: Whitehall ‘won’t cope’ with no-deal
Sam Coates, Deputy Political Editor | Rachel Sylvester
February 2 2019, 12:01am, The Times

The government is worried about the impact of unforseen issues, a report warnsDOMINIC LIPINSKI/PA
A no-deal Brexit could quickly overwhelm Whitehall, the government has admitted in papers leaked to The Times.
A document drawn up as part of a contingency plan, codenamed Operation Yellowhammer, also says the government might have to go on emergency round-the-clock footing for months after a hard Brexit.
The immediate priorities in the event of no deal will be “welfare, health, transport and security of UK citizens at home and abroad, and the economic stability of the UK”, the document says.
t is a 37-page guide to working in the Department for Transport 24/7 operations centre. “The scale of the operation is potentially enormous. If there is no deal, the impacts could be felt [and] could fall across every transport mode [and possibly each sector within wider government], and could grow exponentially as . . . the capabilities of responders at all levels decrease or become overwhelmed,” it warns.
The government is worried about consequences they cannot foresee, it adds. “Critically, it has to be understood that . . . there will be issues of unanticipated impacts that arise, or impacts which had not been fully understood.”
There will be a series of 24/7 operation centres in the event of no deal which will report to the Cabinet Office. The centres go live from March 18 after a practice run on February 27 or 28.
The document says that the Department for Transport will not be able to cope with more than two emergencies at once. The Labour MP Owen Smith said: “This report lays out in brutal detail the impact of a no-deal Brexit: it’s an economic catastrophe, and the prime minister must rule it out as an option. It would damage our country for generations.”
Eloise Todd, chief executive of Best for Britain, said: “These documents are shocking and should be a wake-up call for MPs to take no-deal off the table.”
Theresa May is also being warned by Greg Clark, the business secretary, that she must secure approval for her Brexit deal in the next fortnight or millions of pounds worth of British exports may be stuck in “limbo-land”.
Ships going to the Far East take six weeks to arrive and must label their consignments before they go, so at present they will be travelling under the EU free-trade agreements.
If the UK leaves the EU without a deal, those agreements will fall and it is unclear what the status of the goods will be. Businesses might suddenly be liable for huge tariffs, or find them in quarantine for weeks. Mr Clark says this means that a deal must be agreed within two weeks, not by March 29, to avoid disaster.
• A majority of Britons oppose leaving the EU without a deal, with less than one in five saying that it would represent a good outcome. A new YouGov poll for The Times reveals that 51 per cent think a no-deal Brexit would be a bad outcome, 18 per cent think that it would be a good outcome and 17 per cent call it an “acceptable compromise]]

Very few have referred to criminal activities around Leaving. The fake News by the Mail in particular proven by independent research, the £8million donated by the Insurance magnet. The heavy overspend, the fines by the Electorate Commission. Should I go on, now the loss of key manufacturers and City firms. The Boris & co NHS false advertisement. Why do so many leavers believe this is acceptable and defend electoral crimes?

Simple question why did Mrs T reject regional infrastructure grants based on match funding.? Ireland, Portugual and Spain all took advantage of surpluses because UK did not take up improvements grants under Mrs T.

That’s such a good question MarthaBeck! Perhaps ask your MP to look into it? I doubt any of us on here would have the answer.

And Nonnie I was shot down a few weeks ago by one or two thunderous posters when I put forward something from an article in The Telegraph (which I subscribe to) when the told me in no uncertain terms that The Telegraph is a Leave newspaper. In the same vein (only kinder!) I know The Times is a Remainer newspaper.

No wonder we each like what we read. ?

Don't think we can win Urmston. I don't make such judgements, well perhaps about the red tops! Rational debate seems to be unimportant to some.

I just want to support what Labaik said yesterday about the worry since the referendum. It wasn't too bad at first because I kept thinking people would see for themselves what a bad idea it is.

I never realised what a total and abysmal mess the Westminster politicians would make of it, to the point where we are already damaged and fearful. What scares me most is the bullishness of Leavers and their ability to dismiss every warning from every source as Project Fear, but with no earthly idea of what will actually happen...and frankly seeming not to care.

Terms like "Tick Tock", "We're leaving - get over it" and the dismissal of us as Remoaners will come back to haunt this country.

The scariest thing is the refusal to grant the electorate a say in the name of democracy. Second to that is the underlying feeling of menace against the voices of reason. Words like enemies of the people and traitors have a Trumpesque ring to them.

And whatever objections people have to being subject to the rules and guidelines of the EU, they are nothing to the abject slavery about to be foisted upon Scotland by Westminster - Tories and ineffectual Labour alike - in the name of a Brexit many of us never wanted and are ever to be denied an informed voice in until it is too late.

Good post Caledonai14

Thank you Nonnie. - a reasoned response. It does make such a difference to a healthy debate if none of us are shot down.
Sometimes I think we just have to agree to disagree whilst engaging in a discussion ??

Thanks Nonnie.
And thanks to all who are following Urmstongran's advice.