What next?

re my comment earlier about the other european countries having their own problems . a headline in a french journal today:
"Le vice-Premier ministre italien Luigi Di Maio. / AFP
La France rappelle son ambassadeur en Italie après "des attaques sans précédent depuis la guerre" "
Italy is blaming France for spread of the gilets Jaunes movement to their own country. And seeking a Europ-wide far right pressure group.

Listen to Baroness Varsi:

www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/baroness-warsi-on-the-ways-to-change-the-world-podcast/621683058285326/

I am so angry with my Leave voting Dad. He has damaged the future of his beloved Grandchildren. I have just expressed my fears for the economic future of this country and the loss of jobs going abroad. He dismissed my fears as 'rubbish'.

I feel alienated. It is now a straight choice for Leave voters - stick to Brexit & screw up your family's future (plus lose all respect) or admit that Brexit is a giant fuckcluster of illogical shite. If you get your precious No Deal then you won't be able to make trade deals as the USA, Europe and probably many other countries will see us as breaking the Good Friday Agreement. We are a tiny little island.

It is not the 1950's. It is important to stay as part of a big trading bloc since we now live in a global economy.

MaizieD
Was that a bit of a Donald Tusk moment

The response from MaizieD was predictably bellicose, encapsulating why angry debate is basically no debate at all.

I’m sorry if I’ve disappointed you Nonnie
I too feel like you and I had made some good progress understanding each other’s point of view. Listening and being reasonable.

But I mentioned Venezuela because MaizieD was so furious and fired up about the idea of ‘food riots’ etc. She had even asked andyC if he was looking forward to it! I felt this was an unnecessarily flippant remark. And you had said about shortages of food & probably ‘much else’ besides.

The truth is that none of us know how this will pan out. Yes perhaps I’m too trusting in believing our government won’t let us starve or be put in harm’s way due to lack of essential medicine. And I do appreciate my ‘faith’ in our futures will annoy people and I understand their anger. But I can’t help my optimism. Misplaced or not.

Actually Nonnie I was heartened on 31 January when you posted this:

‘maryelize it is 'intellectually lazy* to be rude about people who a different, though valid. opinion to you. You don't have the only opinion and not a better opinion. I have probably seen things you haven't and you will have seen things I haven't. We are both entitled to our opinion but trying to put other posters down is unnecessary and shows a lack simple kindness. This is not the first time I have seen you do this.’

You put that so much better than I had.

And another thing. My elderly parents got a vote but my children were too young by one year. They are of voting age now and their whole future stretches in front of them. No say in it at all.

Call that democracy? Ninety year olds voting on twenty year olds future. Disgusting.

Urmston what a very patient post from you to MaizieD
After a ridiculous, personal and angry onslaught from her!

Globaleconomy are you over here from Mumsnet by any chance? If you really speak to your Father angrily when he has every right to vote whichever way he likes then you are heading for a family bust up.
Was he as angry with you for voting to Remain? bet not.

Are you for real Global ?

a fabulous voters leave, democracy it called majority... easy to understand x much love... we won end of..... big kisses always

my vote counts as much as another...

He does not have the right to decide my childrens future.

I try and shut the subject down at family gatherings. He goes on and on about it. Anyway, he will be the one to lose in the future as I have no respect left. How can a Grandparent continue with this farce when all evidence shows a looming disaster?

My children did not get a vote.

calm down dearest xx leave means leave love the uk

leave means leave

Yeah. Unemployment means unemployment.

big hugs

we voted out by the majority such a success

Thank you for saying that lemongrove
I was in need of a little support after that rant directed at me!

I’m with Michelle Obama’s mantra when she said ‘when they go low, we go high’

exit most totally

MaizieD you asked me:
‘Why didn't you trust the government and the civil servants when they were telling you that leaving the EU was not a good idea?’

My answer:
Because other members of parliament, some MEP’s and prominent business people persuaded me otherwise.

And further, when you then harangued me:
‘WTF SHOULD YOU BELIEVE THEM NOW?’
(your caps lock and swear words, not mine!)

My answer:
I trust the members of Parliament and our government to keep us safe so I truly believe we will have food to eat and medicines for those who need them.
This is the paramount duty of any government to their fellow countrymen.

Therein lies my reasoning ..... to explain to you the circumstances of when I listen to the government. I hope this goes some way to answering your question?

My brain hurts now .... ?

But a government is just a group of people at a moment in time that have been given jobs of which they have very little knowledge [and some switch from job to job on a regular basis these days]. So how can we put our faith in them? I'd rather put my faith in 'experts'. But that isn't allowed these days.

Of course it is Labaik and that’s why I voted Leave.
I just listened and believed in different experts than you!

But did you trust the people who had to implement your decision? Because they're not [imo] doing a very good job of it.

Not really Labaik I suppose is the honest answer to that. I think that’s because the negotiations are being led by people who want to Remain (which is why I said in an earlier post that most Leavers are thoroughly disillusioned by where we are) - Mrs. May, Ollie Robbins, David Lidington.

The one good thing TM has done is refuse to take ‘no deal’ off the table. Actually it is the table itself as it is the legal default position within Article 50. It is our only bargaining chip as stupid TM in her placatory fashion gave the EU pretty much everything they wanted from the get go.

And she insists we will exit on 29 March. But then again, she also said at the time that she wasn’t going to call an election. So I’m not sure I believe she won’t put a spanner in the works yet to derail leaving.

Here is an example from a newspaper article yesterday which demonstrates the frustration regarding these negotiations when a true Brexiteer tries to be involved:

‘FORMER Brexit secretary Dominic Raab yesterday admitted he felt pushed out of EU withdrawal negotiations by senior civil servants.
He said too much power was given to Whitehall during talks, leading to the principle of ministerial accountability being “frayed”.
Mr Raab said Oliver Robbins, the civil servant who leads the day-to-day negotiations with Brussels, was able to “circumvent” him as Brexit secretary because he reported directly to 
Theresa May. “The challenge is when the senior civil servant is both the personal adviser to the Prime Minister but also leading the Civil Service team,” he told the Commons European scrutiny committee.
“That creates problems because you can circumvent the principle of ministerial accountability, which is vital to negotiations. That certainly happened,” he said.
The former minister, who resigned in November in protest at the EU exit deal, also said he was “very surprised” to find a key change to the terms of the controversial Brexit backstop included in official documents “without my knowledge or my agreement”.’