Merkel clearly calling for an EU Army

Theres a lot more people in this country doing that salute ..the bigots and racists have all come out of the woodwork since Brexit raised its ugly head.You can even see them on Scottish streets though they are a bit rarer,usually in Rangers tops or OO garb and waving union jacks while calling SNP "nazis" Clearly they haven't the brains to know the salute they are giving is NAZI ,or as my OH says they're on a brain share scheme and they dont know which one should be having the use of it .
Of course you'll all be pleased to see armed troops on our own streets

Project Fear from leavers. On the one hand, the EU is weak, useless and about to collapse, on the other it is overbearing, all powerful, militaristic and about to march into the Isle of Wight.

The U.K., if it hadn’t been so mealy mouthed, superior, and beset with the likes of Farage et al, could easily be a major player in the EU, and yes we do have an equal veto.

How are they going to fund a European Army? NATO has kept Europe safe for over sixty years and NATO works. But the United States is increasingly frustrated that there are only a few nations apart from itself that currently pay their agreed 2% of its GDP into NATO. We are one; surprisingly Greece is, or was, another. Germany pays less than Estonia, or Lithuania or Rumania, and Germany is a major player. The American President is not flavour of the month with many people at the moment, and if he carries through his sabre rattling intention to pull out of NATO the Germans would almost certainly take a serious revenue hit as most US troops are stationed in their country. Personally, I would doubt that the German people would be particularly happy about losing that US spending power.

Excellent, well balanced post, TerriBull.

Crystaltipps, I'm not sure everybody understands that all EU-nations have a veto.

The Aachen treaty is between Germany and France. The fact that they are trying to work together and find common ground instead of endless confrontation and bickering is, in my opinion, positive.

GabriellaG54, it seems one of your posts has been removed. Rightly so. If you want to give Leavers a bad name that is exactly the sort of post you should submit.

Paddyann / crystal tips

How is it project fear created by leavers?

I know I have posted about the prospect of an EU Army ''PRIOR TO ' the EU Referendum and so have other posters.!

Have some posters really been unaware of the rhetoric surrounding an EU Army?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31796337. March 2015

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has called for the creation of a European army to face up to Russia and other threats.

Mr Juncker said such an army would restore the European Union's foreign policy standing and show it is serious about defending its values."
-----

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31802171 2015

"The army card

Forming an EU army is not a new proposal. And every time it resurfaces, it is quashed almost immediately.

Note the swift rejection by the British government.

Perhaps, in making headlines with EU army talk, Mr Juncker is following in the time-honoured tradition favoured by world leaders of trying to divert attention abroad when all is not well at home.

It's an extremely useful tool.

President Francois Hollande, for example, has suffered the worst popularity ratings on record of any French leader."
--

The UK has been a thorn in the side of those in the EU such as Junker/Hollande/Merkel/Macron who have called for an EU Army. If they use the term ' EU Army ' I do not understand how some still call it fantasy, a lie!

Since the UK Referendum result to leave the EU it is being ramped up because the likes of Junker/Merkel/Hollande/Macron can see a pathway to achieve their goal.

Yes it does require all the other Member States to agree but the principal of Member States ' Vetoes ' is already declining in principle and being challenged over taxation , the need for the ' Ever Closer Union' / Federal Europe as some see it.

I do not feel comfortable with an EU army because the idea of large blocs is quite scary - US, China, Russia, EU. Like playground gangs. We started off in a Common Market to improve ease of trade and here we are in something quite different.

An EU Army signals a shift by the European Union towards territorial defence. In other words, collective defence of EU territory. Some would say this is inward looking. It has been said that the eastern European states have expressed their strong preference for NATO and rejected the idea of a European army on the grounds that only a US led NATO coalition can provide an effective military hedge against the Soviet Union, and that they are unlikely to give up this resistance anytime soon.

Is there a reason an EU army couldn't be part of NATO? We have our armed forces and are still part of NATO

I don't think all the EU nations have an equal veto. Didn't I read that some of the newer ones don't?

I think crystal has made a good point. So the EU is going to raise an army which will be controlled by uncontrollable leaders. We are leaving the EU. Doesn't that make us very vulnerable? They could overrun us on a whim, Scary, very scary.

Agree with Nonnie and Crystal. What is everyone so afraid of? Why would we be safer rather than inside a EU army in the event of serious aggression? (They came for my neighbour on the left and I looked the other way; they came for my neighbour on the right and I was not at home. They came for me and there was no one left.

We have been ready enough to commit forces in the Middle East to fight in quarrels that are nothing to do with us. Why would the EU be so different?

Nonnie

"Is there a reason an EU army couldn't be part of NATO? We have our armed forces and are still part of NATO"
--

Obviously some individual EU Members are already NATO signatories. Others are not.

Would / could those who have made a Sovereign decision to be members of NATO remain as such or would they be required to align with the decision of the EU when it came to voting rights etc?

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg says this:-

" But I have been equally clear about the fact that EU efforts must not compete with NATO, must not duplicate NATO, because NATO remains the bedrock for European security. We have to remember that after Brexit 80% of NATO’s defence expenditure will come from non-EU NATO Allies. And 3 of the four battlegroups we have deployed in the eastern part of the Alliance, in the Baltics countries and Poland will be led by non-EU Allies. And also geography matters. Norway in the North, and Turkey in the South, and Canada, USA and UK in the West are important for European security. So geography and money, these are facts which we cannot ignore."

POGS NATO can say what it likes but as people keep telling us the EU is a law unto itself!

Trump has complained about paying too much into NATO so that could change the balance completely.

We are leaving the EU. Doesn't that make us very vulnerable? They could overrun us on a whim, Scary, very scary. We are members of NATO and will still be members of NATO whatever happens about Brexit. Which means that if the EU Army separates from NATO the remaining members would have to come to our aid, the same as we would have to go to theirs. Personally I would sooner put my faith in a reduced NATO than throw in my lot with a Franco German dominated alliance that would in all probability have no credible defence posture. Above all I have absolute faith in the discipline, expertise and integrity of our defence forces, who, in all honesty, are the envy of much of the world. It is widely acknowledged that, because of that, the Europeans would far rather have us on side than not.

Well as we are leaving we'll have no say either way.

Whichever way you look at it nobody is going to start a war in Europe without US support, the EU, Germany in particular is increasing its land forces to replace US troops that have been withdrawn. The reality is acting against US “permission” would cause a lot of supply problems, so just why Merkel wants a separate army from NATO I have no idea. Maybe to integrate Eastern European nations into the defense force, maybe to finance it through the EU system instead of nationaly.

It’s project fear because it hasn’t happened - and we’d be able to stop it if we remained in the EU, just like all the things remainers have predicted which are labelled project fear - £ crashing, job losses, food price rises, political crisis, companies haemorrhaging from the U.K., troops on the streets, I could go on - these are all just “project fear”?

Surely all the different languages spoke through out the EU would pose a problem to an EU army?
A universal language Esperanto?
German? French?
Can't see them wanting to go with English.

Greta
...and which one would that be?

Nonnie

" Trump has complained about paying too much into NATO so that could change the balance completely."
--

Trump/America is correct to raise the point that some NATO countries do not honour their fair share of the finance in my book. The USA is well over the 2% GDP threshold and pays 3.6 - 4% of it's GDP. In hard cash sums it is a massive payment compared to any other country.

Unless things have altered it's only the USA / UK/ Estonia/ Greece/ Poland that have spent the agreed 2% GDP threshold NATO countries agreed to pay.

Did you note in the comment from NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said this :-

" We have to remember that after Brexit 80% of NATO’s defence expenditure will come from non-EU NATO Allies. "

The UK is also at the top of the table of EU Member States paying into the EU Defence budget . Again unless things have changed Estonia pays the most , Ireland the least. Germany is calling the shots but it does not deserve to because it does not come anywhere near other countries in NATO or the EU Defence Expenditure.

Merkel calling for an EU Army is a ruddy cheek in my opinion and the other EU Member States I hope will remind Germany how small it's GDP contributions are regarding Defence.

' If ' the UK leaves the EU I wonder if wealthy Germany will start to contribute it's fair whack? Even if we remain I hope the UK will not pay more than the likes of Germany and France any longer.

I can't see that a post has been deleted

Jalima
That's because it hasn't

crystaltipps Wed 23-Jan-19 21:15:26

" It’s project fear because it hasn’t happened "
---

Whether or not it has or will happen.

Whether or not posters agree or disagree with the concept of an EU Army.

I am at least proving the point that those posters/commentators who have repeatedly trashed the idea it was even a remote possibility have been the ones who have been mistaken and no doubt will be thick skinned or disingenuous enough to carry on doing so even when the evidence is mounting up to conclude otherwise.

Like you are still doing they called the concept of an EU Army :-

Project Fear
Fake News
Lies
Scare Mongering
Leavers Fear Mongering
Fantasy
Dishonest
Gullible
Etc Etc.

After many discussions on Gransnet ' PRIOR TO ' and after the Referendum these posters have used the above sort of terms to try and belittle posters who did accept there was talk of an EU Army and that has been the case for some time.

Now you can carry on calling it ' Project Fear ' till kingdom come but what you and those who have lambasted other posters over time as being gullible , believing in Project Fear cannot do is continue to dismiss the Horses Mouth .

When Merkel/Macron/Holland's/Junker use the term EU Army they mean the EU Army no matter how much commentators / posters think otherwise.

I don't believe this army is for defence. I believe it will be used against European people, people who dare to go against their governments.

Perhaps Macron feels that this is what France needs as he is scarcely in control.