Fraudulent referendum

Thanks for posting the link to that important video Jura. I would strongly recommend it to anyone who is still unsure about the illegal activities of the leave campaigners and is interested in the evidence but we should issue a health warning that it is not suitable for anyone who would rather put their fingers in their ears than face the facts.

What alot of pent up rage is boiling beneath some of these comments, alot from the same names which appear regularly on this site.
I voted to leave the EU because it has morphed into an unwieldy, grandiose federation totally unlike the Common Market which I voted to enter when I was young and optimistic. I particularly dislike the way that our own laws are over-ruled by faceless European bureaucrats. I had a vote and I used it after much thought and alot of reading. I am intelligent enough to think for myself, and if I have to vote again I will do exactly the same. The bullying tactics employed by those who wish to remain, only strengthens the resolve of those of us in the majority. I have many friends and family in Europe, and they are fully expecting the EU to break up sooner rather than later. It is costing us billions that could be better spent elsewhere.

Mr Putin must be delighted with the leave voters, especially those who say that, in spite of all the evidence, they would vote the same way again.

Brexit is certainly costing us billions. There is no need for leavers to be so enraged. We will all be better off if we just defy Mr Putin and put a stop to this brexit nonsense.

Welcome to GN Grankind. I am so happy to hear you considered your vote very carefully and with dilligent research- as many did on both sides. Did you anticipate at the time, the issue of the Irish border, which seems to have no solution whatsoever. I must say I didn't at the time- and it seems few or none in the Government did either.

Our of interest, did you watch the video re fraud - as this particular thread is re fraud?

I must admit I didn't consider the NI border, obviously politicians didn't either!! I did however consider Gibraltar which did make me stop in my tracks and was one of the reasons I nearly abstained, but the treaty of Utrecht and Mrs Pankhurst persuaded me otberwise. I now wish it hadn't, and after all the shameful shenanigans of our self serving politicians, its very doubtful that I'll ever vote again under any circumstances. Dispirited? You could say!!

'they', not 'it's.

Ignore the s. !!!!!

Nice of you to welcome me Jura 2. I didn't know I had the ability to make a stranger so happy. However, there is not alot to be gained from sarcasm. It is still the lowest form of wit.
What I also did when I voted was to fervently believe that this is a democracy and that each one is entitled to vote in the way they see fit. I remember thinking that if the vote went the other way I would be bound to accept it, however reluctantly. But your constant carping and that of the politicians who wanted us to stay in hasn't helped us. It has made our situation worse. By the way, there is one 'l' in diligent. To answer the Irish question - on my ballot paper it simply asked if I wanted to stay or leave. I think it may have been the same on yours.

Welcome Grankind . As you can see from my post, I am a totally disillusioned leaver. I so agree with your post on every level, and believe that brexit has been lost largely due to the persistent undermining by fifth columnists in our own country and particularly parliament. Certain politicians voting en masse for article 50, conning their constituents into thinking they would deliver brexit at the GE, when in fact they planned to do the exact opposite, is for me just so dishonest as to be unbelievable. Rushing a bill through the H of C before MP's had time to give it proper discussion and scrutiny , and expecting the H of L's to do the same is just appalling. The bill passed by one dubious vote = ok, the referendum passes by the equivalent, and all hell lets loose. Double standards lies and deceit are the flavour of the year(s) and anyone with a grain of integrity can just take a hike! I'm through with elections, any elections,for the sham they are!
If Remain had won, as I expected it would, like you I would have accepted defeat with disappointment but with grace. Why oh why couldn't Remain do the same?!

Jabberwok: If Remain had won, as I expected it would, like you I would have accepted defeat with disappointment but with grace. Why oh why couldn't Remain do the same?!

You would have accepted defeat with grace even if you had known that the Remain campaign had been fraudulent? Really?

We often hear that we are a very tolerant society and of course most of us would agree that tolerance is a laudable attribute. However, there is another side to our tolerance and that is tolerating the intolerable.

A clear clean win perhaps- but even if I repeat, and I will because if ti massively important - not a tiny majority won on huge lies and now proven fraud on a scale and of a nature never seen before. Democracy based on that just cannot be called 'democracy'.

As for my welcome, a stranger, happy. Sarcasm- where?

However, even if the majority had been larger, with a clean Referendum - many individuals, businesses, experts in many fields- would be saying now that we should think again and give people a first INFORMED Referendum, on the current situation, now we can understand the difficulties (and there is NO solution to the Irish border) and the consequences- especially on the poorest and most vulnerable areas and people. Because it makes total sense.

Grankind
Brilliant reply to your 'warm' welcome ???
Where have you been for the past 3 years?

It is indeed customary to welcome new members- whether one agrees with them or not. It is polite and friendly, I believe.

Because it makes total sense. But only to those of us who voted to remain jura; do you not see that?

You've been posting, almost non stop, since before the referendum. Further upthread, I asked if anyone, anyone at all, had been swayed by any of the arguments, opinions and points of view that have been stated on here, and elsewhere, in the past 2 or 3 years. And not one single person has said that they have been persuaded to change their mind or now regret voting as they did. Not one. In fact, everyone (on both sides) seems to be more deeply entrenched than they were originally. What is it that you're hoping to achieve? I don't think anyone has been, or will be, converted to your point of view at this stage.

Yes I can see that. And yet- facts have now changed a lot since then- and I would have hoped people would at least be prepared to seen the clear issues that are arising, the real risks now highlighted for industry, business, farming, etc- and at least accept that huge lies were told, and extremely deceptive and manipulative fraud took place.

I shall never give up, because it is just too important for the future of the country.

You are so right Jura. We have to be optimistic and just hope this nihilistic brexit madness can be stopped in time.

I feel for you- but mostly I feel for the future of this country. I have a family and I worry about what lies ahead for them. I also worry about all the finer details of our arrangements with Europe. However, having been in Barcelona when the local people flooded Las Ramblas with a huge demonstration objecting to poor social conditions, and having watched the 'gilets jaune' wrecking cars and doing untold damage to artefacts that have stood for centuries on the Champs Elysee, I can see that we are in a period of complete social turmoil. People are angry and society is fractured. Now is the time to look at our own country and try to put right what has gone wrong. We can't do that if we are spending vast sums on feeding the lifestyles of unknown oligarchs. It is bad enough when considering the salaries of our own MP's. I too feel strongly. The Right wing is on the rise again in Europe because of the frustration of forgotten sections of society. We must do more to help those who are struggling here in our own country.
Look to the history books and see what happened the last
time. There is always a pattern. Jeremy Corbyn is not the answer. And by making room for people like him we are courting disaster. If you disagree with me that is fine, because in a democracy we are allowed to think and say what we feel. But don't shout down other people's comments, like Rosie Leah. She is entitled to speak. Her comments are as valid as yours. Thankyou Petra for your encouragement. I have been here for a long time, but social media is not usually on my 'to-do' list as it has a tendency to be dominated by the same few voices.

I'd agree with the beginning of your post. We are indeed living in troubled times, but I truly feel we have a much better chance of solving some of the issues together- in Europe.

But this statement ' Now is the time to look at our own country and try to put right what has gone wrong. We can't do that if we are spending vast sums on feeding the lifestyles of unknown oligarchs.' really is ironical in the extreme- and seriously worrying.

Grankind, you know what I'm going to ask don't you?

Please explain what you mean by the 'feeding of unknown oligarchs', who are they and how much is vast sums? I've never heard this before and really would like to know.

I find it seriously worrying Jura 2 that you are still trying to suggest that the vote of the majority should be overturned. There is another name for that and it isn't democracy.
If you were truly aware of what is going on in France, Germany and many other countries in the EU, you would see that we will be better off using our own resources for the benefit of Britain. I know that that in 2017 we spent nine billion pounds on our membership of the EU. And for what? Our NHS is crumbling, our schools are crying out for more funding, and many people have nowhere permanent/decent to live. I could go on. The oligarchs I mentioned are the political businessmen who make a very good living out of making all sorts of decisions for us. They are called MEP's. They earn around £6,000 pounds per month and are paid expenses. We don't vote for them.
I realise that I have now given you more opportunity to unpick each of my words, but if it gives you a purpose in life go for it..................................!

For those who question the 'problem' of the Irish border, perhaps they would like to consider what happens on the EU's eastern border! No back stop there is ever talked about. Also, the EU has allowed French dependencies to become members and some of those border African countries. I can't believe many or any of them follow EU regulations or standards!

The UK can import and export through Belfast and cut Dublin out completely, and regular businesses which cross the land border can apply for trusted status. Imports and exports which only cross the border sporadically can be checked electronically either at point of receipt or dispatch.

It's a made up problem to keep the UK in the EU and bind us to their rules forever because they can't countenance the fact that a country would dare to leave.

Actually, Grankind, we did vote for the MEPs, but we are not allowed to vote for the bureaucrats, like Mr Juncker, the ones at the top. All their salaries and expenses are tax free too.

That's it then Quizqueen, you've sorted the Irish problem. Done and dusted.

Goodness Grankind, how do you come to be so 'truly aware of what's happening in France, Germany and other countries in the EU'? Do you have specialist knowledge through your occupation perhaps?

The examples you cite of the crumbling NHS, schools with deficit budgets and too few homes are caused by the British Government and their austerity programme. We have done that to our own people. Failing to invest in the poorest areas and cutting councils' funding to the bone and then some. Nothing to do with the EU. The Government do have a money tree and the DUP knew where to find it. Don't blame the EU for the policies of the Tory Government.