Fraudulent referendum

As always - it depends on which ‘experts’ you side with & my choices are are not yours.

Oh do stop all this nonsense about 'experts differing'. This isn't a matter of expert opinion, it's about the law being broken. It's about a dirty referendum which would have been voided had it (i.e the referendum) had any legal standing. But it doesn't have any legal standing because it was never intended to have any.

Theresa May is well aware that the result is tainted, her Counsel said so in court very recently. Her decision to press on with Brexit, citing that awful fascist trope about 'the will of the people' shows that even our prime minister shows contempt for the rule of law. It's supposed to be a cornerstone of our democracy...

Quite frankly, the disregard of Leavers on here for the principles of democracy which include fairness and openness in elections, completely disgust me.

Democracy is far more than just 'the will of the people'.

The deceitfulness of Remainer MP's disgust me!

Well MaizieD and jura2 I’m never going to agree with you.
Funny how the Establishment aren’t bothered either - even though most are Remainers?
Perhaps they ought to listen to you both more.

... not bothered either?!? It is flabbergasting that people use the word 'democracy' willy nilly- picking and choosing.
So you are not bothered about clear and proven fraud- on a massive scale. You are not bothered that the Leave campaign and Banks actually stepped up the campaign just as Joe Cox had been murdered, taking advantage of it- and so much more.

Accepting a tiny majority won on massive lies and fraud- IS what will kill democracy. But yes, I totally agree with you - we will never agree- for excellent reasons.

I'm a pacifist and the level of rage/anger/shouting and frustration on here from remainers is disgraceful.

It is beyond sensible doubt that there is no proper mandate to leave the EU. The notes to the Venice Commission on referendums, to which the UK is a signatory, says “if the cap on spending is exceeded by a significant margin, the vote must be annulled”. Our own courts have said: “In elections, as in sport, those who win by cheating have not properly won and are disqualified.”

The rules that parliament decreed to ensure the referendum was not captured by oligarchs will have been breached.

The fact nobody can prove beyond doubt that Vote Leave’s cheating made the difference is beside the point. Did we say to Lance Armstrong’s seven runners-up, “Yes, we know he’s a drugs cheat but can you prove you would have won if he hadn’t taken drugs?” Of course not – how could they prove that?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/04/vote-leave-cheated-will-people-mps-electoral-commission

The cheating got the leavers the result they wanted so they're hardly going to condemn those who set them up.

Anyone who was a genuine pacifist wouldn't be reading the Brexit threads! Anyone with an axe to grind couldn't keep away! What a mess has been caused, and is still being caused by an inward looking, infighting Tory Party!

GG54 : ' rage/anger/shouting and frustration'

frustration I will give you, yes, tons of it. But rage, anger and shouting' - disgraceful! Where? Nonsense.

Oh jura2

“So you are not bothered about clear and proven fraud- on a massive scale. “

Nope.

Mrs. May isn’t losing sleep over it & she, Hammond, Rudd, Lidington, Grieve, Soubry amongst many others aren’t mentioning it. Why should it bother me then?

There has been at least 1 poster who was pulled up for writing in capital letters...aka shouting.
The rage, in many of the posts from leavers, is palpable IMO.

leavers remainers
Remainers not leavers.

Both sides cheated and lied, both before the referendum and afterwards. Project Fear was hardly truthful!!!! As for President Obama?!!!!!

jura2
so you are not bothered about clear and proven fraud- on a massive scale
Nope ?

oh dear, a few capital letters do not amount to vile rage and anger- for sure. And no, both sides did not blatantly, willfully and illegally lied.

Whatever...I'm not bothered any more.
I'll deal with any result and certainly won't be doing without my usual shopping habits.
I have to laugh at those who crow 'yay' over being able to get an Irish passport. Infantile behaviour from aged adults.

Gabriella wrote:

"I'll deal with any result and certainly won't be doing without my usual shopping habits."

Good for you Gabby. For a lot of people Brexit is not very good.

Just reading through this, the latest in dozens of Brexit threads that have gone befire it, and wondering if any of the thousands of words; arguments; accusations and counter accusations, have altered anyone's opinions? Has anyone been swayed by the strength of conviction of a posters opinions of what was right or wrong? Does anyone feel that what they have written on this, or any other thread, has made any difference whatsoever?

I understand that for many, exiting the EU is not good, just as I and others think it's for the best, especially in the long term.
If we remain in the EU and some things change because of their poor view of us, so be it.
I'm well able to go with the flow and make the best of a bad job.
My stance won't have altered and I'm sure that sense will reign in the remain camp if the outcome doesn't reflect their wishes.
We'll get through it as there is nothing else we can sensibly do.

Frankly, I don't give a hoot. I made my mark and that was the end of my involvement.
Worry and anger get you nowhere. I don't 'do' either so that my health isn't compromised.
Have a good weekend.

By the way Alexa
Would you mind using my site name, not shortening it to Gabby?
Gabriella happens to be my real name and I prefer people to use it.
It might take an extra couple of taps on the keyboard but not more than a second or two timewise.

Thank you.

Chewbacca
Yes.
I have altered or ameliorated my view(s) on dyslexia, anxiety and depression amongst the many health issues discussed on here and grandparents.
I didn't realise that the former were so widespread across the age spectrum and the latter had so many family problems with relationships, finance and health 'issues'.
It's concerning to say the least.
Of course one reads and hears about it but the concentration on GN seems to be quite high.

I've been reading the Brexit threads for the past 2 to 3 weeks and have found nothing to convert me to Leaving the EU. But then there are no solid facts, only opinions, feelings and wishful thinking. I'm continually amazed at the rebuttals given to some of the Remainers who have provided facts and often their sources.

More and more is being uncovered about the many frauds committed by the Leave campaign, Banks, Farage and others in cohoots. It really does undermine Democracy in a most fundamental and massive way. It is hugely important that we listen and understand how this was done- as it is likely to apply to most countries, elections and Referendums.

When campaigns use fraudulently gained money, with foreign backing- and secretly target individuals from other groups, be they football fans or animal welfare- then it is very serious- Because it is totally hidden from view.

Banks Insurance Company was shown on a French documentary having all its staff working full time on phone targetting of totally non political groups- none of that cost was accounted. The Office manager was also a Leave campaign manager.

What it rather tragic now- is that Leave Voters choose to be in total denial of the fraud, and won't even look or listen to the evidence.

This documentary is very clear on the fraud:

www.facebook.com/TheOriginalSteveLee/videos/10156549274568208/

Actually this made me smile - from The Graun today:

“The odds on a no-deal Brexit with leading off-course bookies have drifted of late, from 5-2 to 4-1 – but those are still roughly the same odds as Grand National winner Tiger Roll.“

So there is hope yet- Tiger Roll proved it.

And yet, again- not a comment on the fraud highlighted above. Probably not even bothered to look at the evidence - and that is the most worrying thing. Head in the sand, full speed ahead, come what may (hmmm) and after me the deluge. No wonder only a tiny % of young people vote Conservative.