Younger people’s views beyond March 2019.

Thank you for finding that, MaizieD. I fear another referendum would be full of lies again.

Seems that 16 year olds are considered unfit to vote because they are too shallow, too ill- informed, lack life experience, can’t be bothered to do their research, etc....

A bit unfair when you consider that the other age groups are allowed to vote whilst knowing bugger all about anything.

What they said:

“If we come out, we are out. That’s it. It’s not politically credible to go back and say we’ve reconsidered, or let’s have another referendum. If we vote to stay out, then we are out, and we will have to get on with it.”

— John Major, speaking on the Andrew Marr show in December 2015

“I will forgive no-one who does not accept the sovereign voice of the British people once it has spoken, whether it is by 1% or 20%.”

— Paddy Ashdown, speaking as votes were being counted for the referendum (and when Remain were projected to win)

Retired, the article in The Telegraph to which you give a link is an opinion article written in 2014. The scenario pictured by the author and the dates he suggested for the events he depicts are his personal view of the future as he saw it at the time. They are not facts and should not be repeated as such. For example, he foresees Europe obliging member countries to join the euro but this has not happened. The Lisbon Treaty was ratified in 2009 and does not include any plans for changes in the 2020s. The Telegraph writer believed (in 2014) that these changes would take place in the 2020s. This is the Leavers equivalent of Project Fear. It is important to listen to ideas about the future - in the case of Brexit, both Remainer and Leaver - so that we can form our own ideas but we need to distinguish opinions from facts.

The Telegraph writer, BTW, was Andrew Lilco. A leading Brexiter

Young people are far more knowledgeable and articulate than the majority of us were at their age. From some of comments I have read in these columns they don’t carry the same levels of prejudices and bigotry as many of us oldies.
My youngest granddaughter who will be 16 in March, took part in an open all age debate in Bristol last August. I was amazed how articulate she was and spoke like an expert on climate change. I was so proud of her, I doubt that many on these pages could have held a candle up to her. As for 21 instead of 18, as age for voting, presumably that goes for joining the military and getting married. Get real folks this is 2019 .

MaizieD Sat 16-Feb-19 20:30:11

'The Telegraph writer, BTW, was Andrew Lilco. A leading Brexiter'
---
Meaning?

If ' bias ' in reporting / quoting from / posting links to others is your point and you feel it is therefore not worth mentioning/taken notice of , then why should posters take anything from the totally ' biased ' links to the likes of Tom Pride you posted a link to?

Do as I say not do as I do.

I was in Guildford this afternoon. Many teens and early 20s around so, after finishing my shopping in M&S I decided to ask several groups, on the High Street, in the Friary (shopping mall) and down Friary Street and North Street, their views on remaining in the EU or leaving with or without a deal.
Altogether I put the question to 56 young people, both male and female, between the ages of 13 and 22 with one 26 yr old wanting his say too (not that it amounted to much)
After collating the answers at home, it became clear that the majority across all groups weren't that interested as to whether we were in or out. There were some remarks that their parents would still be buying their food and "dealing with shortages" so they had "nothing to worry about".
Most of them thought it was a lark and nothing much would change. Those who thought there may be changes, either staying in or leaving, were of the opinion that it wouldn't affect them as their parents would "make sure I am ok".
In brief, 11 wanted to remain, 23 didn't know/had no opinion and 22 hoped for a leave result.
There were:
6 × 15 yr olds (at school)
12 × 17 yr olds (school/college of whom 5 worked holidays in Pizza Express and 2 in a garden centre. They spent earnings on games, clothes and going out)
2 × 13 yr olds (at school)
1 × 14 yr old ditto
6× 18 yr olds (2 leaving school this summer, 3 at college, 1 at Uni)
14 × 16 yr olds (school, 9 have holiday jobs, spend on clothes, make-up and going out)
9 × 19 yr olds (of whom 6 at uni, 3 college. 7 work during holidays, 4 for their parents businesses)
2 × 20 yr olds (both at uni, neither working during hols)
1 × 21 yr old (working f/t living at home, no contribution)
2× 22 yr old (2nd year uni drop out has worked but currently unemployed and looking, other is landscape gardener)
1 × 26 yr old (working p/t to fund backpacking holiday for several months)

Bear in mind that Guildford and surrounds is an area where the majority of people are wealthy or at least, comfortably off and many many children are privately educated.
On the whole, the consensus was, 'we have little to worry about as our parents deal with 'all that'.
Bar one, (a 19 yr old) every one of them had very new iPhones bought and contracts paid for by parents and 18 of them were iphone 9s which set you back about £800.

I would willing give up my vote as an over 70 in a 2nd referendum if 16 and 17 year olds could vote for what is their future.

MarthaBeck
I take it that she has a better command of English grammar than you do.

maryhoffman37

You don't matter?
Do you plan on living for the next 15-20 years?

Meaning, POGS, that Lilco was a Eurosceptic putting his own spin on what he thought might happen.

Tom Pride has found that the 'Lisbon' facebook post was not written by the person it was attributed to and that the content of it it was not true.

We've come to a pretty pass if 'truth' is just a matter of whose eyes you're seeing things through.

I have even linked to the Lisbon Treaty and an explanation of the Lisbon Treaty which do not back up the statements made in the Facebook post. Would you like to check them out yourself?

Well said Cakebaker. Bet all those kids on strike drink and chuck away their plastic bottles throw away crisp packets. Probably Mummy or Daddy drive them to school. No one asked them that. Most of them seemed to be quite "posh" kids.

Not in a million years would I have considered my father and mother , indeed nor myself, on reaching the age of 70 or whatever should roll over and believe they/ I have no say in the future of our country.

Did some of you feel your parents were so bloody useless and because they had grown older they should somehow become less of a citizen and should have lost their right to a democratic vote entitlement?

Why is the Referendum being used to make a faux argument. They are either intelligent enough to make decisions or not but just spouting it is ' their ' future on just one topic, the EU , is ridiculous.

It is either thought at 16 children are so wise they understand what they are voting for whether it be, Leave/Remain in the EU, understand the Political Nuance of the different parties and where they stand on subjects such as Euthanasia, Taxation, Employment, Defence, Pensions all the subjects we as voters reflect on to decide which Political Party we as individuals feel are closer to our thoughts because we too also have to make decisions as to ' Our ' futures.

I detest the way Referendums are used as a political weapon to cause division between age groups.

Children , parents, grandparents should not be pitted against one another. Where is the moral compass in telling, brain washing our grandchildren they have more rights than their grandparents just because they have lived longer and will die before them.

Maizie d

' Meaning, POGS, that Lilco was a Eurosceptic putting his own spin on what he thought might happen.'
----
As opposed to the links you continually post to Pro European/ Pro Remain sites and bloggers who put ' their own spin ' on what they think might happen.

Bias is Bias!

I very rarely, if ever, post links to bloggers, POGS for just the very reasons you dislike. I have linked to twitter threads but only if the statements made on them are backed up with evidence from original documents.

Now, are you going to look at the Lisbon treaty and make up your own mind as to the truth of the facebook post or are you just going to continue sniping?

I'm very impressed by your survey GabriellaG but not by your criticism of MarthaBeck.

annep1
Oh dear!
I'm not out to impress but, as MB had eulogised about her GD's oral prowess, I decided to point out that hers could do with a bit of attention given that she mentioned having been in publishing.

Young people (18 year olds) HAD their say in 2016. The people who were 18 the day, the week, the month, the years afterwards did not. That’s a shame, that’s life. So we have ANOTHER vote, great, what about the people who do not get their vote the day afterwards? Shall we have a people’s vote every week for ever until they are all catered for? Oh wait, they can never be catered for can they?

GabriellaG I know you're not out to impress, nevertheless.....
I've missed the reference to publishing. I don't agree with her at all but I still think it's wrong to comment on grammar.

GabriellaG, thank you for taking the time to do that little bit of research. It very nicely sums up why sixteen year olds should not be given the vote. It also shows up why many eighteen year plus olds couldn’t be bothered to vote in the referendum.

Retired65 - was this your evidence -

page 12 The Union shall establish an economic and monetary union whose currency is the euro.

page 62 The Council, on a proposal from the Commission, shall adopt measures on fixing prices, levies, aid and quantitative limitations and on the fixing and allocation of fishing opportunities.";

None of this refers to the UK or Schengen specifically or even refers to the year 2022.

Your idea of "evidence" is very strange. I see that it also included a link to the Daily Telegraph article which is just an opinion piece. And as for posts on Facebook being evidence......you'll have to do a lot better

What is worrying, Ramblingrose is that this nonsense is being passed on widely through social media and forums and is believed . I googled the first few lines and found it all over the place. But if one reads the actual Lisbon Treaty it doesn't corroborate any of it.

The young had their chance. Yes, many are well informed and concerned- the ones we hear from. Sadly, many couldn't be bothered registering to vote. So, no, they don't deserve special privileges.
I believe in a 2nd referendum as now we all know more.

I would willing give up my vote as an over 70 in a 2nd referendum if 16 and 17 year olds could vote for what is their future.

Well, I wouldn't!!