Are those condeming the Labour Party confusing Anti Zionism with Anti Semetism

Joelsnan sadly a reply I expected ,

www.timesofisrael.com/corbyn-regrets-defending-london-mural-he-now-says-is-anti-semitic/

I didn’t realise that was him PECS

Yes..the same incidents are repeated over and over. I has the effect of suggesting it is ongoing, new & multiple.

This is the sort of daily disruption to life for ordinary citizens of Palestine that makes many anti- Zionist . These activities are rarely reported in British maimstream press. They are often verified by Jewish Voice for Peace.
www.middleeastmonitor.com/20181102-israel-settlers-dump-sewage-on-palestinian-school-in-qalqiliya/

As i started in my above post, I believe the source of the problem in the Labour party lays within the sheer size of the party and its alined broader movement. In that, as with any large organisation, there will always be individuals who wish to "stand out" from all others and gain a reputation, or with some "notoriety."

In the above, some who gain a reputation for such things as public speaking or good analysis of any situation move up the movement ladder whether that be through the Labour party or the trade unions, or as with the likes of Jenny Formby by a combination of both.

However, there are those in the movement that may realise that they do not possess the above talents and therefore chose notoriety gained by "being outrageous" in their words and actions. In that, such persons may not wish to see the difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism and therefore make outrageous statements against all of Jewish origin as a method of gaining their desired notoriety.

As was stated earlier in this thread, there are undoubtedly also those who genuinely do not realise the difference between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, for no one has ever decreed that a PhD was a requirement for a person to join any section of the Labour movement. In that, there are undoubtedly (in my opinion) those who condemn all of Jewish origin for the actions of the state of Isreal.

In the foregoing, and as stated, it is the size of the Labour Party and it's aligned broader movement which is the basis of the anti-Semitism problem in the Labour party. That problem has been ruthlessly placed in the fore of public attention by a Blairite faction in the parliamentary party that have never accepted the 2015 changes in the party structure or the democratic election of the present leadership.

For as Jenny Formby stated in her usual forthright manner to the NEC, "it is impossible to police what every person states in a movement of six and a half million people."

And that is the simple truth.

Anniebach
Maybe you should look at this:
architectsforsocialhousing.wordpress.com/2018/03/29/the-social-realism-of-the-labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-and-the-socialism-of-fools/

Apologies it should have been "stated" in the first line of my above post and not "started" as was the post.

Joelsnan thank you for that very interesting and erudite article.

Sadly the thinking will be beyond the ken of many, especially those who do not want to look deeper into this. And equally sadly this propaganda campaign has done its job.

however this is done in the Zionist mission to further the state of Israel. This strikes me as an anti-semitic remark. 'Zionist' is term much used by anti-Semites, but very few others. Israel is a country recognised as such by the UN. It is entitled to defend its borders.

But I will go no further, because like many people I think the country is its own worst enemy and many of its actions are totally abhorrent.

Replies as expected , denial

'Zionist' is term much used by anti-Semites, but very few others.

As a baffled onlooker I would utterly disagree with this statement.

1) Zionist is a useful term to describe supporters of Israel's policy and actions. How else would one distinguish between supporters and non supporters (be they Jewish or non Jewish)

2)What evidence is there that it is a term used mostly by anti semites (other than the MSM, of course)?i

3) I think this statement is doing almost exactly what the OP is asking about. Except that it is not so much 'confusing' the two as 'equating' them. So round in circles we all go again.

There is nothing anti Semitic about questioning the agression and land-grabbing tactics of Israel. Indeed by not discussing these openly for fear of being labelled racist or anti Semitic we are falling into the same trap as turned a blind eye to the grooming gangs of predominantly Asian heritage.

Ardent Zionist detest Corbyn and always have because of his ‘support ‘ of Hammas. Whether you see Hammas as a force for good or evil is very much ‘one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter’.

There are three factions behind this smear campaign. Firstly the political right. Secondly the Blairite-New Labour wing of the Labour Party and finally the powerful Jewish/Zionist backers who have funded the Labour Party in the past and at least one of whom is now funding the Independent Group.

Corbyn doesn’t really stand a chance against this triumvirate.

Anyone can follow the Israeli news by reading online eg Jerusalem Post, Haaretz (the Land) etc.
The latest significant thing - a new political alliance between 2 ex generals threatens to oust Netanyahu.
A country run by generals?

Grandad

'For as Jenny Formby stated in her usual forthright manner to the NEC, "it is impossible to police what every person states in a movement of six and a half million people."
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You are to be commended on your repeated promotion of Jenny Formby but can I point out some facts about the Formby /Labour investigation into antisemitism in the Labour Party , which I am happy to be corrected on if I have given misinformation.

1). There was criticism that the figures only included complaints made since ' April last year ', when complaints have been made far longer than that. It is also being questioned as to the criteria by which some members had received a conduct reminder and no further action.

Formy responded: “To identify complaints of antisemitism, staff would have to go through every single complaint received in the earlier period. This would be hugely time-consuming and would take their efforts away from the important task of processing complaints.” However, she confirmed the party had expelled seven members before April.
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2). Labour investigated 673 alleged cases and expelled 12 party members since last April.

The party revealed the figures in an email to MPs, and suggested no earlier figures could be compiled because there was “no consistent and comprehensive system for recording and processing cases of antisemitism”.

673 alleged cases is very high but as Labour MP Margaret Hodge made a valid point when said she alone had submitted more than 200 examples of “vile antisemitism” where she believed the evidence showed they had connections with Labour.

Who knows the truth of how many complaints have been filed?
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C ). The ' email ' Formby sent to MPs, suggested no earlier figures could be compiled because there was “no consistent and comprehensive system for recording and processing cases of antisemitism”.

It is reported Iain McNicol ( former Labour Party General Secretary ) disputed that claim in a private meeting with Labour MPs saying such a system ' had been in place.'
What is the truth?
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I could go on but the Labour Party General Secretary Jenny Formbys Investigation is being viewed in a similar vein to the Shami Chakrabarti Investigation , a bit of a whitewash.

I would love to know just where all these accusations of anti-semitism originate. I wonder if someone has been disciplined for some unacceptable behaviour and, as is the case with minority groups, has claimed prejudice because of their race/religion? There is no basis for anti-Jewish feeling in Britain, they have been part of our society and politics for a very long time.

Joelsnan

In link / article you posted to architectsforsocialhousing do you believe had the characters not been portrayed as Jewish but were facially recognisable as being Arabic wearing say a
Throbe and Ghutra the wall mural would not be deemed as anti Muslim?

I noted in your link/article this comment :-

Enter – stage left – the Leader of the Labour Party. In October 2012, only a month after the mural had been completed, , the Mayor of Tower Hamlets before he was removed from office in 2015 for corrupt and illegal practices and disqualified from holding electoral office for five years, announced to his constituents:

‘I have received a number of complaints that the mural has anti-Semitic images. I share these concerns. Intentional or otherwise, the images of the bankers perpetuate anti-Semitic propaganda about conspiratorial Jewish domination of financial and political institutions. Where freedom of expression runs the risk of inciting racial hatred then it is right that such expression should be curtailed. I have asked my officers to do everything possible to see to it that this mural is removed.’

I think Lutfur Rahman was correct and it does ' run the risk of inciting racial hatred '. Funny how tolerance of racial hatred/ stereotyping depends on the subject rather than simply being evidential because it suits.

POGS
An interesting read
Does this report state what the basis if each complaint was?

I am just interested to understand where this growth has come from and what has apparently caused it. As far as I was aware we as a country bore no malice towards those of the Jewish faith and they (in general) were very well integrated into society. The only time I would know (without being told) if someone is Jewish is if I go to somewhere like Manchester and see the devout men in their hats and pigtails.

POGS
As stated the central image in the mural is a 1930s american image depicting bankers/ millionaire businessmen two of which are Jews. In the article I put the link to the men are named.
So in this context should the non jewish community complain of racial or religious discrimination because they too were portrayed in a 1930s image called 'If we stand up, their game is over.'

As the Corbyn Momentum party called in Barroness Shami in 2016, then Formby in 2018 to deal with allegations of anti semitism (Which the far left here deny exists) ,
Why are they bringing in Charlie Faulkner in 2019 to deal with allegations of anti semitism

Anniebach
Exciting...spill the beans...who are the 'far left here'?
BTW, where do you think anti semitism within the Labour Party has arisen from and why is it being perpetrated and how?

Joelsnan

'Does this report state what the basis if each complaint was?'
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47203397

The data published revealed:

673 complaints of anti-Semitism by Labour Party members were received - a Labour spokesman said this represented about 0.1% of the membership

96 members were immediately suspended after complaints were made and a further 211 were told they would be investigated

146 members received a first warning, and 220 cases did not have sufficient evidence of a breach of party rules for an investigation

Of the 307 who were suspended or notified of an investigation, 44 members left the party
Another 96 were referred to the party's anti-Semitism Disputes Panel

Of the 96, 16 members were issued with a formal warning from the National Executive Committee, six members' cases were referred for further investigation, 25 members were issued with reminder of conduct (a first written warning), and seven members' cases were closed as the full evidence suggested no further action should be taken

The panel decided to refer the other 42 members to Labour's National Constitutional Committee (NCC), with five members leaving before their cases were reviewed

Of the 37 cases referred to the NCC, 12 members were expelled and six received sanctions, while the rest await their outcome

The other members who were suspended or notified of an investigation are either still under investigation or are cases where the investigation revealed evidence that meant the case could not be pursued further

The party received a further 433 complaints which were not about Labour party members.
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As previously mentioned the figures do not include allegations prior to April 2018! The amount of allegations and the reason why not ALL allegations have been made known have been challenged .

Joelsnan

' where do you think anti semitism within the Labour Party has arisen from and why is it being perpetrated and how?'
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I know your question was to Anniebach but for over 3 years antisemitism in the Labour Party has been discussed on GN. I am not of the belief you are a new poster have you not noticed them..

Since 2016 Labour MP's/Councillors have spoken of the rise of bullying, intimidation and antisemitic behaviour in the Labour Party and there has been too much evidence to deny that is so, although some do try.

There is a common denominator and that is the Jeremy for Leader/Momentum/Corbyn Party that now has holds the nuts, bolts , locks and keys to the Labour Party .

POGS
Although not a new member, I do tend to dip in and out of Gransner.

Apart from actual abusive language I wonder what would constitute anti-semitic behaviour. Let's take M&S a great funder and supporter of Israel which many who support Palestine believe should be targeted.
So which of these is anti-semitic.
1. If I personally stop shopping at M&S but don't tell anyone.
2. If I do 1 but at the same time message my friends and use social media to say why and encourage others to do as I have.
3. If I do 1 & 2 but also set up a stall outside M&S to recruit other people.
4. If I organise a crowd to stand ouside M&S distributing leaflets and engaging people in discussion and actively promoting a boycott of M & S.
Or are any of them?

I have no idea what behaviour/language constitutes anti-semitism to any Labour members, but considering that hundreds and hundreds of complaints are being investigated ( or rather not being investigated!) within the LP, clearly there is a problem there.
It could well be that many are confusing anti-zionism with anti-semitism, but very likely that anti-zionists become anti-semitic after a while and it spills over into hating any Jewish people as well.

I doubt if many anti-zionists are anti-semitic or ever likely to become so. They may occasionally be accused of anti-semitic actions when supporting Palestine but that is usually accidental. Interesting lemon that you haven't chosen to say which of the actions (if any) is anti-Semitic. It proves what I have always susected that those who bandy the term about really have no idea what it means apart from at a very basic level.