Are those condeming the Labour Party confusing Anti Zionism with Anti Semetism

That’s because I wasn’t actually answering your post trisher but making a general point. So, to now answer it......
None of those actions to me are anti-semitic, as you would not be making a fuss because you hated Jewish people.
You would be protesting about a hard nosed Israeli government and the Palestinian hardships.
And I still think that for a lot of people, being anti-zionist does spill over into disliking Jews per se.

All the hundreds of complaints within the LP are highly unlikely to be about those who simply protest about Israeli
‘Hawks’.
Until all this denial ends and people come to terms with the fact that under Corbyn’s leadership, the anti-semites within the rank and file of the LP have had a field day, nothing will change.

trisher

MY response to your question and the OP is the same as it was in 2016 when anti semitism in the Labour Party was being reported and I have no doubt shocked the decent Labour voter/members.

All I had to do was copy and paste because I hold the same opinion 3 years later.

POGS Fri 18-Mar-16 12:35:13

Being pro Palestinian is not the same as being Anti Semetic is it?

Is 'Israel Apartheid Week' Anti Semetic or not ? Is the call by some Labour councils to boycott Israeli goods Anti Semetic or not. The answer is possibly not but it does leave a nasty taste in the mouth for some but obviously not to others. When/where does the dividing line merge and Anti Semitism is seen as a perfectly acceptable measure to take when Israel is the subject of so much hatred in the eyes of some people and by activism.

I have said on threads before I believe Israel is totally at fault over the occupied territory. That does not make me Anti Semetic. If I refuse to share a debate/platform with someone ' because they are of Jewish birth' I am in my opinion rightly accused of Anti Semitism. If I call somebody a ' Zio ' , a Ku Klux Klan prefered terminology I think that is tantamount to Anti Semitism is it not? Anti Semitism is on the rise , not only in the UK but in many other countries. I am concentrating on the widely reported problems facing Labour and our universities as this is an obvious area to discuss.

The question is about Anti Semitism not whether Israel is right or wrong, nor whether or not Palestinian groups such as Hamas are right or wrong. Both have their own issues and neither can be seen as saints .

I'm still very confused about this, but as far as the issue of anti semitism in politics is concerned, I think it came to a head when Corbyn became leader of the LP because of his uncompromising support of the Palestinians. I know several other LP members who feel the same way, and then criticise the militant Israeli govt.
I see their point.
Once this entered the UK political arena the media entered the fray and extremist views cancelled out reason. The problem in the LP got out of hand and the whole issue became politicised.
There are other aspects - one is the actual situation on the ground in Jewish communities in the UK. As far as I know there has been an increase in antisemitic incidents since the referendum, as against other ethnic groups, but nothing like the drama in the LP.
The other aspect is the general tendency in Europe and elsewhere for a swing towards right-wing views. Which always impinges on Jews and other minority groups.
As I've said before, I live in a very mixed ethnic area, with a large orthox Jewish community and I hardly dare say it, but b'h no major antisemitic or anti anyone incidents recently.

Must say that as a Jewish (non practising) jewess and a member of the Labour Party, all I can say is that I am impacably opposed to the extreme right wing government at present in Israel and will condemn them whenever necessary. I have never experience anti-semitism in the Labour party in any shape or form.
just my personal experience
I do know that Corbyn (I am not a particular supporter of him: has always opposed actively all forms of racism.

Franbern Because you have never experienced anti semetism does not in any way mean it doesn’t exist in the party. Luciana Berger and other MP’s have experienced it.

Annie I tried to make the point, and give reasons, that the nature and roots of the anti semitism in politics is different from that in grass roots Jewish communities.

ps agree Franbern.

Fennel how can any racism be different depending where it rears it’s head , it cannot.

Annie you will have to try to work that out.
You never answered Eloethan's question about your definition of racism.

Fennel racism is racism , it needs defining ? Little wonder it is denied in the party by some .

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d2/Jews_Against_Zionism_book.jpg

Jews Against Zionism, the book.

Franbern and Fennel

I posted this on another thread as it was from a debate in Parliament last week:-

Barry Gardiner keeps getting mentioned so it is appropriate to post his words , this is one of his comments during that debate.:-

" The CST does more than work on safety. Its work to record and analyse antisemitic hate crime is integral to our understanding of the scale of the problem that faces us. Last year, it recorded 23 antisemitic incidents in my borough of Brent alone, and 1,652 across the country. That makes for sober reading. Antisemitism is at a record high, with a 16% rise in incidents nationwide year on year and 100 incidents every month. This is the lived reality of our Jewish fellow citizens living under the strain of antisemitism. It is appalling—the arson attacks on synagogues, the desecration of Jewish cemeteries, the neo-Nazi graffiti on posters for Holocaust Memorial Day, the vandalising of centres of Jewish life, the physical attacks on Jewish children at their schools or on public transport, swastikas daubed on Jewish homes and antisemitic hate mail sent to Jewish workplaces and schools. These hideous crimes are a warning to us all. We must do better, and we must be better.

That brings me to the issues facing my own party, the Labour party. It was the Labour party that introduced the Race Relations Act and the Equality Act, and it has put fighting inequality, racism and prejudice at the core of who we are and what we believe in. How can it be that we are struggling so badly to eradicate antisemitism from our own membership? I joined the Labour party because I believed it was quite simply the best vehicle for progressive social change in this country. I still do, but no party has a monopoly on virtue, and in the Labour party we are learning a bitter lesson. For all the strength and passion that we have derived from the mass influx of new members that has seen our party grow to more than 500,000 strong, we have not had adequate procedures in place to react swiftly and decisively to that small minority of members who have expressed sometimes ignorant but often vicious, dangerous and vile antisemitic views.

On behalf of my party, I want to publicly apologise to the Jewish community that we have let them down. We know it and we are trying to do better. We are trying to become the party that we have always aspired to be. We will not stop working until we once again become a safe and welcoming political home for people from the Jewish community, as from every other. The Secretary of State said that we stand here today to say of antisemitism that we reject it. We do. We must."
---

He is not a lone voice, he is not the right wing press, he is in Corbyns Shadow Cabinet , he is is a Labour MP who has the guts to speak honestly over the antisemitism issue in the Labour Party .

Why don't some members and commentators who portray they hate racism , bullying, harassment on any other day have the guts to do the same as those Labour MP's and Councillors who have reported this happening for over 3 years?
---

There are 2 excellent Parliamentary Debates concerning antisemitism available to read and when Labour MP's are telling of their experiences surely it is time to listen.

This pre dates the EU Referendum by the way.

Feb 2016. Labour peer Baroness Janet Royall, was appointed to lead a fresh investigation into allegations of antisemitism at Oxford University’s Labour Club.

The Shami Chakrabarti Inquiry was established by on 29 April 2016.

Well, at least Barry Gardiner is not in denial mode!

Good for Barry.

So far as I understand it, the term Zionism came into common usage in the 19th century . After hundreds of years of pogroms against Jews many began to believe it was time to return to Palestine/Israel on the basis Jews would only be safe in what they believed to be their homeland.
Zionism therefore meant to be Jewish was a religion and a nationality.
I’m happy to be corrected if my historical understanding isn’t correct. I find the use of the term Zio offensive. I’ve onky heard it used as a term of abuse. I was on a guided tour of Manchester with a well respected guide. All went well until we reached the site of the Portaloo massacre, when the guide spoke positively of the Way the Manchester Guardian ensured the horrors were made known in London. He went on to say the current Guardian was influenced by “Zio’s”. He mentioned bankers, wealth etc.
There is indeed a fine line between anti semitism and opposition to the actions of the Israeli government towards Palestinians,
How anyone can call that “accidental” as one poster has is a mystery.

The term Zio is offensive.

Do you think it jis legitimate to call for an end to the Israeli government' daily harrassment of Palestinians and policy of erasing Palestinian culture and history of Palestine?
It is absolutely wrong to deny the Holocaust. Equally it is wrong to deny that Palestinians have an identity and history in the area now Israel.

It’s wrong to deny there is anti semetism in this country,

Anniebach
I am sure there are only a few who would deny there is antisemetism within the country.
Judaism is a religion and not a race.
Iam64
The definition of a Zionist:
^ZionistDictionary result for Zionist
/ˈzʌɪənɪst/Submit
noun
1.
a supporter of Zionism; a person who believes in the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel.^

Haven't read all the posts.

I agree that there is a problem with anti-semitism in the LP.

I also believe JC to be anti-semitic.

I also think that there are those who use the broad term anti-Zionist as a mask for anti-semitism, and that these include Corbyn himself.

I think the artwork Annieb refers to is the one of Jews standing over "oppressed" persons (maybe meant to be Palestinians)?

Afaik JC has not denounced the message in this work ie that Jews are oppressors.

Israel has a legal right to exist under UN law. It is a small democracy surrounded by violent dictatorships.

Jews have been persecuted and murdered in their millions for thousands of years. They currently number around 7m in Israel afaik.

JC condemned the law that ratified Israel. He has been linked to Holocaust deniers. He has supported Arafat and is vehemently anti-establishment, anti-America, pro-Palestine and anti-Israel.

Whether or not that equates to anti-Semitic is between Jezza and his conscience.

oldgimmer I agree with you

The wall mural I posted a photograph of, Corbyn praised it, when this was made known he said ‘ I didn’t look closely at it’

The same when asked about attending a memorial to terrorists , who who had murdered Olympic atheletes ,
‘I don’t know if I was involved’

PECs I hope my posts all confirm I oppose oppression and land grab. Zio is abusive on that we agree. Xionist??

oldgimmer1
You may believe what you like- some people still believe the earth is flat.
The term anti-Zionist is not the same as anti-semitic. The treatment of the Palestinian people and the acquisition of their land, an illegal act condemned by the UN and much of the world, has meant that people have had to take action and speak out. They are not speaking out about Jewish people they are speaking out about the actions of a government which refuses to implement UN rulings and ignores international requests. A state recognised by the UN should implement their rulings.
The art work in question represents named bankers -only 2 of whom are Jewish standing over the oppressed of all nations
The artist- Ockerman has said I came to paint a mural that depicted the elite banking cartel known as the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Morgans, the ruling class elite few, the wizards of Oz, they would be playing a board-game of monopoly on the backs of the working class.
So nothing to do with Palestinians
It is such a pity that you cannot acknowledge the work of someone like Corbyn who has been awarded 2 Peace prizes for his work to build peaceful solutions and avoid conflict.

A peace prize to a man who supports terrorism

Mandela was a terrorist and the state of Israel was founded by terrorists.