Scottish Independence

Gabriella be assured that we don't all want to leave the UK nor do we all hate the English!

I wrote many not all
There seems to be a lot of dissent.
Perhaps Scotland needs a referendum on the matter and I feel it's only fair for them to have their say.
That way, there can be no denying the will of the majority and, if it's a majority vote to stay within the UK, then no-one can deny that it was a fair vote.

Once in a generation Gabriella

Not another one!

GG ^If you can talk about being tolerant towards people with whom we have fewer things in common, why so antagonistic towards English people?
One gets shot down in flames on here for being racist but you show all the hallmarks in your comment.^

Pray can you show me where in my remarks on this Thread or indeed anywhere on Gransnet, facebook, etc. I have said anything which could be construed as Racist? I have never, ever, in all my long life been branded as such before by anyone and take that to be the grossest insult you could have laid at my door.

Also, I have no antagonism towards English People in general, only those who appear to believe that Scots are inferior, as I stated above

Granny23
You are making big differences between English and Scottish. Not people. Not UK residents. English and Scottish.
Some English people make your blood boil.
Some Scottish people may make the blood boil in some English people but we have a choice.
Either you (the population of Scotland, not you personally) garner enough votes to leave and do your own thing or, if that's not on the cards, Scotland will just have to bite the proverbial bullet.
We in England cannot do it for you.
When I was about 20, I remember a middle aged couple getting worked over in Matthew Street by 3 Scottish men. Their reason? They hated the English accent.
Granted, they'd had a few sherberts but the antagonism was there and it's never really gone away.
Very likely there are views which paint the reverse.
I hope you get your wish. Then you'll be the architects of your own futures.

We've already had a referendum. Our wish to remain part of UK was crystal clear!

Was this not before Brexit- and therefore before the situation changed drastically and before Scotland was totally ignored during the whole process? Democracy does allow people to change their mind when circumstances change.
Even David Davis agrees.

GG said "We in England cannot do it for you.' This is true but the UK Parliament can deny Scotland's wish as agreed by its duly elected Parliament to hold another referendum.

"Now is not the Time" said Theresa May and that was that. Wish she had said the same to David Cameron!

5 years ago, the situation was very different.

No wonder its called a neverendum by the long suffering Scottish public.

Yes, men said that about the votes for women suffrage too.

Good point Jura2 and a good comparison - trying to get legislation through a hostile Parliament, relying on the Goodwill of others to make your case for you where your own voice is not heard. This week's episode of Victoria focussed on the attempts to get the vote for working men, which led to riots/arson/violence cf Irish Independence.

Thankfully, the campaign for Scottish Independence has been notable for its determination to campaign by peaceful, lawful means.

If as the SNP state the EU Referendum, indeed Referendums in general are NOT MANDATORY but merely advisory why doesn't Sturgeon and the SNP use that to set a date for another Referendum? They say Scotland ' WILL' vote for Independence and that is what the people want so why not put their money where their mouth is.

Why hasn't Sturgeon and the SNP made attempts to make Referendums mandatory to stop the never ending cycle of using it as an excuse not to abide by the outcome when it doesn't suit. That applies to the Scottish Independence Referendum and the EU Referendum which are linked.

Would Scotland want a complete break from the rest of the UK, a soft Scexit or a hard Scexit, if of course the UK has left the EU with No Deal?

Time for rhetoric to put into practice?

Time for rhetoric to put into practice?

But the Scottish Government DID ask Westminster to agree to a 2nd Referendum and TM said "Now is not the Time' = end of story and as the rules ARE applied to us lesser mortals, no chance of raising the same proposal during the rest of this Parliament. (although other avenues are available)

POGs, the Scottish parties cannot call a referendum without Westminster approval and the SNP's long stated case has been to abide by the previous referendum result unless Scotland was dragged unwillingly out of the EU (this stated before we even knew what our response to Brexit would be), but they are clever enough to realise the time is not in the middle of a crisis such as this.

As has been said here many times, one of the very persuasive arguments by the "no" campaign (indyref) was that independence would mean we had to leave the EU and (oh, the irony) would then have a very-difficult-to-manage land border between Scotland and England which would still be part of the EU in one of the most powerful positions for negotiating anything.

What many people forget is that all main Scottish parties and their leaders campaigned to stay in the EU. It makes no sense for Scotland to commit economic suicide in this way...I mean the Brexit we are about to have foisted upon us.

Many forget that independence would then give all parties (including the Tories, lord help us) an equal chance at governing Scotland, but with the added advantage of our proportional representation system which makes the political balance a lot fairer and means everyone has a voice at some level.

To those who say we hate the English I would say, sadly, there are still a very few idiotic dinosaurs who dislike "otherness" because of race, sexuality, religion, accents, origin or the colour of their hair. Utterly daft but it happens everywhere. I've never seen it on Gransnet, I'm glad to say.

Personally, I have found that people from all countries have enriched this area in ways we couldn't have imagined and our English friends have brought so much in the way of ideas and new thinking, particularly if they have experienced city life in a way we haven't, but I'm well aware that there are parts of Scotland where the colour of your football shirt can cause animosity. Equally daft and we will have to grow out of that one pretty quick if we are ever to sit at a table with the EU grown ups.

I'm proud that I live in a country currently led by a party which has consistently shown leadership, clarity, unanimity and common sense on Brexit which is such a threat to our economy, employment chances, rights, future and freedoms.

And the above has only become obvious to this individual Scot since the Tories determined to jump off a cliff without so much as a balloon in their hands, while Labour can't decide whether to call the Coastguard or just cover their eyes and cross their fingers.

Well said Caledonai14 You'd think what we are asking for is something never heard of before ...Independence is the norm in most of the world.Westminster still has an empire state of mind and we're one of the last outposts .Of course the fact we are very wealthy in our own right means they want to hang onto us by the skin of their teeth.Ably assisted by folk who have believed all the crap they've spouted for decades..centuries about how we're too wee.too poor and too stupid to run our own affairs. And then theres the Queen and flag contingent ..good orangemen one and all..or rangers supporters !

For those with only a casual interest in Scottish politics, it is perhaps relevant to note the composition of the Parliament.

Of 129 MSPs;

1 is the Presiding Officer
1 is an Independent
5 are LibDems
6 are Greens
23 are Labour
31 are Conservatives
62 are SNP

Simple arithmetic shows that there is therefore a pro Independence majority in the Parliament (6 Greens + 60 SNP = 66 and also a strong 'EU Remain' cohort with the Greens, SNP and Liberals = 75 + individuals from other parties.

Also interesting to note that on many 'domestic' issues the whole Parliament votes For, having ironed out any slight differences at Committee stage.

When Blackford is shouted at again, in the House of Commons- with Tory MPs shouting 'go back to Skye' - I really am sure that this strengthens the call for independence, surely.

Granny 23

"But the Scottish Government DID ask Westminster to agree to a 2nd Referendum and TM said "Now is not the Time' = end of story and as the rules ARE applied to us lesser mortals, no chance of raising the same proposal during the rest of this Parliament. (although other avenues are available)"
----
As you say ' Allthough other avenues are available'.

Is this information correct or not?

Does the Scottish Parliament have the power to hold another I dependence Referendum.

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/second-referendum-scottish-independence

"Under the Scotland Act 1998, the Scottish Parliament is not allowed to pass legislation relating to matters “reserved” to Westminster, including “the Union of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England”. This is widely interpreted to mean that any referendum relating to Scottish independence would require Westminster approval. However, the matter has never been tested in court, so there remains some uncertainty about whether Holyrood could hold an advisory referendum without consent.

In 2012, the UK and Scottish Governments signed the Edinburgh Agreement, which temporarily empowered the Scottish Parliament to hold the first independence referendum. This power was transferred using a so-called “Section 30 order”, which “put beyond doubt” the legality of that referendum. The Scottish Government did not explicitly concede that a referendum could never be held without Westminster authorisation. But its preference is to proceed with agreement, since any unauthorised referendum could be blocked in the Supreme Court or simply boycotted by unionist parties."

I have heard many SNP politicians say Scotland does not need Westminsters permission to hold another Independence Referendum and I honestly do not know if that is true or not.

If it is true then my question remains why hasn't the SNP set in motion another Referendum given the EU Referendum result and it's obvious implications. The SNP say the people of Scotland want Independence and they are sure they will succeed.

If it is not true then why say the Scottish people do not need permission from Westminster.?

Has it ever been tested by Sturgeon and the SNP?

I have made reference to Referendums being ' advisory' but I took note of the wording above:-

" This power was transferred using a so-called “Section 30 order”, which “put beyond doubt” the legality of that referendum."

That question to paddyanne and Caledonian also.

I am trying to understand the truth.

Well it would Jura2 if people knew about it, but very few folks watch PMQs live (mostly at work at that time) and this is not something that the MSM feature in their evening bulletins and next day newspapers.

The 'go back to Skye' was by no means an isolated incident. Nor is it a recent phenomenan - it has been common practice to shout down SNP MPs, especially female ones, ever since they first appeared at Westminster. Ask Winnie Ewing about her awful experiences after she won a by election and was the sole SNP representative in the House.

A journalist recently checked back Hansard and concluded that Theresa May had not actually answered a single question from Blackford at PMQs on any topic, including UK wide issues. She invariably answered with her irrelevant stock reply that Scotland voted to remain in the Union.

I watch Parliament Live and if anybody thinks shouting abuse is one sided they are being extremely selective.

Im not a lawyer but I have been told by a lawyer that if two people(countries) sign a contract (union) then at any time one can end that contract and wal away.It cannot be forced that they remain in a contract they want out of .Since the only two countries to sign the treaty of union were England and Scotland,although Scots didn't want it ,then legally we should be able to walk away .We would have a right to everything we have contributed to that is 8% of EVERYTHING in the UK .We did say we would honour the debt they ran up in our name ,legally we wouldn't have to.As I said I am not a lawyer but my friendis a coorporate lawyer and this is what she said .

POGS As explained above the SNP's long stated case has been to abide by the previous referendum result unless Scotland was dragged unwillingly out of the EU and, of course the whole UK is STILL in the EU.

Back in Magaret Thatcher's day it was accepted that all Scotland had to do to declare Independence, was to return a majority of pro-independence MPs to the House of Commons, but this was rapidly forgotten and rubbished when this scenario actually happened at the 2015 GE and again in 2017.

Meantime, the SNP MPs, MSPs and MEPs have had the Scottish Claim of Right (which declares that Scottish Citizens are Sovereign and therefore have the right to determine their own future governance) ratified by the Scottish, Westminster and EU Parliaments. In layman's terms this means that the SG could call a GE where the SNP (and Green?) Manifestoes would include a statement that if they achieved a majority they would secede from the Union, revoking the Treaty of Union, which has now been breached numerous times anyway,

This would be a perfectly legal action under Scottish, Uk and EU law. There has been heated argument as to whether there should be a ratifying referendum to confirm this course of action, but as far as I understand this is not a legal requirement.

Thanks Granny23 for that explanation and I hope it answers your question POGS.

For what it's worth, I think Scotland would be welcomed back into the EU with open arms, but the Europeans cannot risk alienating further the touchy British Government which is managing to make such a pigs' ear of the EU withdrawal. Nobody is going to mention Scotland's position until the UK position is settled.

There are many years of negotiating to go yet and who knows who will be leading the UK and how belligerent or otherwise the negotiators will be? My heart sinks at the number of people who think we would be better off out with no deal, even now.

Many people would like Scotland to go it alone within Europe, but the thought of negotiating with the clowns at Westminster over many years - and the fear of what they might subject us to when they are the larger partner (having seen how they have acted towards the big 27) - means Scotland will have to be very very sure of a win before going for independence again.

The time is probably not now, but that does not mean we have to like the current crazy situation which will leave us poorer by far and under the clumsy thumbs of the Tories who mock our chosen representatives and ignore Scotland throughout the whole of Mrs May's 500 page deal.