Scottish Independence

Sorry FPTP

Sturgeon has to make daft concessions to the tiny Green party in order to get anything passed.
SNP activists occupy an echo chamber of agreement via twitter and Facebook etc so just don't hear what non SNP fans/ordinary people actually think about independence.
jura re your Scottish friends in Switzerland, I find just travelling on public transport and eavesdropping in shops amply confirms that SNP govt is very unpopular indeed.

Nicola Sturgeon is First Minister of Scotland and is thereforeas entitled to speak for her country as any other Head of State

She is First Minister of the Scottish Parliament. She is NOT Head of State.
The Head of State is HM the Queen.

However, wee Nicola certainly puts herself on a pedestal and makes her voice heard above that of any PM or Head of State (apart from, possibly, Trump).

Empty pots?...

Any government in power as long as the SNP have been runs into problems with some of their natural supporters disliking policies. This does not change the fact that some of the policies have greatly improved our lives or those of our families.

In my wider family there are people who would not be alive today if they'd had to choose between paying for prescriptions and other essentials while very ill; there are teachers who would not have managed to afford four years of university without the waiver of tuition fees; there are at least two young working couples on very low wages for whom the baby box was an essential for basic items they might not have thought of or been able to afford; those same young adults are very proud of our record on green and renewable energy which is far ahead of the rest of the UK. It matters to them.

There are many things that I and others think the SNP have got wrong as most political parties do in the end ... but they have been far more active and socially-just than ever the Labour/LibDem coalition was in its two terms at the helm in Scotland.

Nothing is perfect, but to say the SNP only stand for independence does them a great disfavour...as does demonising Nicola Sturgeon in a way that would be disallowed on open platforms if it was directed at the Prime Minister, Anna Soubry or Yvette Cooper to name three at ramdom.

Up to now, as far as I am aware, Gransnetters have managed to avoid the kind of trite personal comment on Nicola Sturgeon's looks which so fascinate people on other platforms including the BBC. To repeat what's been said in the thread would just add to it, but be warned it is not acceptable in this day and age and none of us would like it for ourselves or our daughters.

Nicola Sturgeon has done a very good job as First Minister of Scotland and is currently having to balance understandable calls from the more militant parts of the party to capitalise on the embarrassing mess of the Tory infighting (and Labour inaction) with a genuine desire to protect our country from being dragged down into a situation much worse than the current set-up.

At times, the SNP have felt like the only adults in the party leadership room recently and dissing the First Minister of Scotland is a desperate measure ranking with stirring up hatred of MPs and the Speaker of the House of Commons at a time of national crisis.

And on a graph of mistakes, I doubt Nicola would rank as a tiny fraction against the thickset lines for Theresa and Jeremy.

Beat me to it Jane10
“Sturgeon has to make daft concessions to the tiny Green party in order to get anything passed.” Wasn’t this discussed when Jura brought up about wee nic criticising the handful of DUP’s in Westminster, when she is doing the exact same in Scotland with the handful of Greens?
Who said the “awful Scottish Parliament”?
Granny23 I agree that the First Minister of Scotland is entitled to speak for her Country. However I have 3 issues here...
1) her country voted against Independence, and I do expect you to say that things have changed since then, BUT things change from the day after an election!!
2) the number of seats won by the SNP has went down, in both Holyrood and Westminster, since the Independence referendum, indidating a move away from the SNP!
3) her apparent inability to see past Scottish Independence and Brexit, mean that Scotland is suffering in other ways. As already said If she put as much energy, money and time into her duties in Scotland, health, education and other essential services would perhaps be in a better situation.

Up to now, as far as I am aware, Gransnetters have managed to avoid the kind of trite personal comment on Nicola Sturgeon's looks which so fascinate people on other platforms including the BBC
Shall I be trite?
She always looks well turned out, smart and neat and her hair always looks good (which must take some doing because it looks 'difficult' rather like mine).
However, I do wonder how she manages to get through a working day in those high heels.

Beat me to it Granny 23!
Bottom lone is that as far as I can see my whole family and I are happier and more satisfied with public services than we'd ever be South of the border.
Gp's and hospital services, education, taxation?
Here yes but there, no!

Absolutely fine with that sort of comment Jalima. That's not what I'm objecting to, of course

Oh and I agree about the high heels, except that Nicola (and Theresa ) do seem to be able to manage them, unlike TV presenters who need escorts holding their hands to get into and out of position.

As said, I have never lived in Scotland, nor spent a lot of time there- so NOT 'au fait' with the ins and outs for sure.

All I said was, in short- alwyays been a unionist as we are stronger together- but the Scottish vote and wishes in the Ref. being absolutely and totally ignored may well push many Scots towards Independence.

Nicola's speech at the march yesterday was a massive success - and she earned a lot of respect through it- from those there from all over the UK- and expeically the young.

Jura2 maybe you could explain WHY you think we're "stronger together"? Its something that has puzzled me for a very long time,why do people south of the border think England is better with Scotland as part of the UK given that they all seem to believe that we are scroungers who take from the English taxpayer and give nothing in return ?
And why you think its normal or OK for one country to rule another ...against their will? That last statement being the fact that Scotland hasn't voted the tories into power since the mid 1950's yet we get landed with them on a regular basis because England voted them in .

they all seem to believe that we are scroungers who take from the English taxpayer and give nothing in return?
Oh, for goodness' sake!

And why you think its normal or OK for one country to rule another ...against their will?
And oh, for goodness' sake again
You could say that because someone votes Lib Dem, Green, Plaid etc that they are being ruled against their will.

We live in a democracy, one person one vote. The SNP does, in fact, have a higher proportion of representatives in the UK Parliament than other parties who received a lot of votes but no seats to show for it.

Losing patience with it now because these arguments have no logic.

Scotland is a part of the UK and a very small part of it at that.

In a way, where I live is in a similar situation - the French speaking part of Switzerland - with a very different culture, not just the language- French/Latin oriented, whereas the German speaking part is, well, Germanic oriented.

A large and substantial minority. This is exarcerbated in a Direct Democracy where many very important decisions are made by vote and referendum- and where the FRench speaking side, usually with the help of Basel and sometimes some Italian speaking areas - are practically always pipped to the post and our will ignored.

The French speaking side would have joined the EU, for instance- and vote much more to the left of centre and for more open social structures.

Paddyann - I strongly feel we should remain in the EU as we are stronger together- and I used to feel it was important for the UK to remain united. As said, I'd totally understand how the Scotts could and would change my mind in the current circumstances.

And I understand it too, as my family originates from a part of Switzerland, French-speaking, Catholic, that was just 'given', without any vote or participation in the decision- to the Canton of Bern - and was invaded by the Bernese, who imposed the German language in all institutions and schools- kids beaten if they spoke their native FRench- and the Protestant religion imposed too. 2 centuries later - the resentment is still festering and affecting the region strongly.

Scotland doesn't have a very different culture from England any more than Wales does or the various other regions. The North, SW, SE etc all have their dialectal differences but are all united by the common language : English.
Historical allusions are only that - historic. To find out what modern Scotland is like jura come here and sit on buses, listen to people chatting in queues, at school gates etc etc. Could be eye opening for you!

paddyann
I 'hear' what you say but what would you do for protection in the case of a terrorist strike or the upkeep of your railway infrastructure or your fees for academies/universities.
You don't have the population numbers to sustain all that via their taxes.
How about staffing on rigs and in distilleries? If all the English working in those sectors decided to leave, could you manage?
If you and your friends are so sure that you'd be better off and you wouldn't come cap-in-hand to England if it didn't turn out for the best (and don't forget that you'd have to make payments to the EU just as the UK does for all of us now) then I wish you the very best of luck and stand behind you all the way.
We don't want an attachment that is all one way.
You take back your MPs and declare your rights over anything made in your country and we'll stop selling our cheeses, Cornish pasties, and coco-pops to you. Fair do's.
I'll vote for anything that gets you out of our hair. It's a long running grumble.

paddyann
I was talking about England having total autonomy rather than being part of the EU and subject to various of it's diktats.

BTW. I hope that Scotland would recall Lorraine after they gain independence. I'd even pay her train fare...1st class.

of course Jane10 - I have said all along that I have never lived in Scotland, nor spent much time there. So yes, buses, trains and markets, etc - a great way to pick up vibes. And yet, I do wonder if the conversations in those places in Edinburgh would be the same as in Glasgow or other places?

To deny the differences in 'culture and history' of places like Wales and Scotland, or both Irelands for that matter- seems naïve. Of course we could talk about the Danelaw, and Essex and Wessex, etc, etc - but I do think it is different, somehow.

Not arguing- this is an interesting discussion.

Alsace-Lorraine is a very different history ;) ;)

Gabriella It is obvious from your remarks that you consider the UK and England to be one and the same. Scottish Tax Payers (and Welsh & NI ones) pay their taxes into the same pot at the UK Treasury as English People. Granted the taxes paid by Scottish Residents are only approximately 10% of the total UK tax take but it is worth noting that the average Scot pays more tax per head than the average English person because average wages are higher in Scotland. Although the population of Scotland is around 9 or 10% of the UK total it is still larger than many successful smaller Independent Countries and as to land area Scotland comprises 1/3 of the UK. Where did you get the idea that our oil rigs are staffed by workers from England, who would all go home if we were Independent??? Can you not understand that having had an oil industry here for at least 2 generations that we have a plentiful supply of home grown and trained oil engineers here. Or that people come from all over the world to work on the rigs because of the very high wages??

I have never hated the English just viewed them as like next door neighbours, or cousins, with a few differences and much more in common with each other. However, some (and I stress only some) of the comments on this thread, which label the Scots as somehow inferior, too wee, too poor, too stupid to manage their own affairs without big brother England to bail us out and keep us right, make my Scottish blood boil.

Granny23, do you feel that the Scottish and the English and Welsh are one and the same culture, as stated above?

You're very out-of-date with the oil & gas sector, Granny. Offshore wages are no longer very high or even high, compared to before the oil price slump. Non-UK workers didn't earn the high wages that UK workers got, which was a bone of contention and they were never a big proportion anyway.

Many, many workers came from England, esp the NE, when my Dh was offshore, probably more than 50% were from south of the border. Anyone travelling on the Aberdeen to London trains on crew change day would bear witness to that.

Granny23
No I do not consider the UK and England to be one and the same.
I'm as clued up as any on here about where the borders lie nor do I state that all the oil and distillery workers are English.
I asked the question as to how Scotland would manage IF English workers decided (for whatever reasons) to move back to the UK, after all, they might be working under different terms which might not suit either party.
I'm behind your move to separating from the rest of the UK and, as before, I wish you all the best.
You want to leave and we don't need you.

One thing does stand out and here's where I can't square the circle.
It's about integration and getting on with those who share this planet.
Many people say that they're all for being inclusive. Equality. All colours, all nationalities, all faiths, all genders yet, Many Scottish people hate the English - their nearest neighbours.
It's been going on for generations.
If you can talk about being tolerant towards people with whom we have fewer things in common, why so antagonistic towards English people?
One gets shot down in flames on here for being racist but you show all the hallmarks in your comment.