"You cannot betray the six million people"

Anyone else who signed the petition had 2 e.mails? One saying that the petition will not be debated and one saying that it will be debated on Monday?

G23, I thought this was weird too. It seems to show the level of confusion that we're getting used to.

Would you like to post the bit in my posts where I explicitly state that the 17.4 is now fewer in number?

On the other hand, the whole 17.4 million who voted Leave no longer exist. A considerable number of voters have died since casting their votes and a considerable number of young people have come of voting age and are now registered.



Perhaps you could make your meaning clearer MaizieD

Crystal you said "I still can’t undestand how holding another referendum on enhanced knowledge is deemed “undemocratic”. If Leavers believe their ideas are so evidently correct, the result should be a landslide in the favour of leave. Then there would be no further debate." I agree, I've been asking Leave voters that for a very long time but not one has answered me.

G23 I've deleted mine but I think the first one was the 'Government Response' which told us we would still leave and the second one was to tell us that it would be debated on 1st April. Oh the irony!

But, I’m very uncomfortable with the way remainers are trying to overturn the referendum result because it inconveniences them personally.

It has nothing to do with personal inconvenience. It has everything to do with the fact that the referendum was tainted by illegality and cheating, as has been pointed out many times on this forum. That it was corrupted has even been acknowledged by the PM, a fact also pointed out several times on this forum.

The 'personal inconvenience' mantra is just an accusation made to gee up Leavers and is not grounded in fact. To paraphrase Leavers' own constantly repeated statement 'No-one knows exactly why 16.1 million Remainers voted the way they did'.

Perhaps you could make your meaning clearer MaizieD

I'm trying, Jalima but people's apparent lack of comprehension skills is working against me.

That statement does not claim that there are fewer Leave voters now. It just illustrates that the composition of the original 17.4 million has changed. That is the point I am trying to make. The original 17.4 million no longer exists its entirety. Whether there are more or fewer Leave voters now I have no idea. Though the polls seem to be indicating the latter.

The same points hold true for the 16.1 million Remain voters, too.

Well said Gabriella??

MaizieD you are now wriggling out of your earlier statement.If it’s the point that things have changed for Leave voters, and have also changed for Remain voters as you say........then there is no point.
This whole ‘ leavers have died’ thing is just an unpleasant comment that some poster enjoy tipping into the mix.
Plenty of Remain voters will have died in the last three years too.

It’s not other posters lack of comprehension skills MaizieD......it’s just your muddled thinking.

Its not 6 Million votes its 6 million Email accounts.

If you stray over MN you will see on some Brexit threads where MNers say it perfectly legal for their children with email accounts to sign petition, as there is no where on the petition which actually states you have to be over 18 to sign.
Or indeed over any age.

What is the matter with some Leave voters, why refusal to countenance another referendum?

Issues are clearer apart from dodgy issues around the p2016 referendum. We hold elections every 5 years (now), should we stop doing that and keep the same government so we're not voting repeatedly on the same thing?

MaizieD you are now wriggling out of your earlier statement.If it’s the point that things have changed for Leave voters, and have also changed for Remain voters as you say........then there is no point.

Oh, for heaven's sake., lemon. At no point did I say that there were now fewer than 17.4 million Leave voters. Just that the demographic has changed, with an illustration of how it has changed, and the original 17.4 million no longer existed. Maybe I should have added that there could well be new Leave voters but I really thought that would be obvious.

Clearly not.

the whole 17.4 million who voted Leave no longer exist. A considerable number of voters have died since casting their votes
I don't think I am the only one struggling to understand just which part of no longer exist or have died you are referring to.

The claims are that young people would have voted to remain, so the number 17.4 million presumably no longer exists.

We do not need to guess the current state of opinion be estimating how many leave voters might have died or changed their minds or whatever. Properly conducted opinion polls carried outover the last eighteen months or more have shown a consistent lead for Remain. In spite of this, top psephologist Sir John Curtice has until now been quite cautious about the true state of public opinion, but yesterday that changed with the publication of a significant new poll .

"Brexit has ceased to be the “will of the people” and in a second referendum 55 per cent would vote Remain, analysis of British Social Attitudes Survey respondents has suggested. The new National Centre for Social Research data also found that just six per cent now think the UK will secure a good Brexit deal - a massive reduction from the 33 per cent who were optimistic about the outcome of negotiations when the Article 50 process was triggered in March 2017.

The findings have led the centre’s senior research fellow Sir John Curtice to warn MPs discussing Brexit in Parliament: “There is seemingly room for debate about whether leaving the EU is still the ‘will’ of a majority of voters in the UK. “Perhaps the key message for the politicians as they decide what to do is that those on all sides of the argument might be best advised to show a degree of humility when claiming to know what voters really want.”

The centre’s analysis was based on interviews conducted between 24 January and 17 February with 2,654 adults who had previously participated in the British Social Attitudes Survey. It found that only 79 per cent of those who voted Leave in the 2016 referendum said they would vote for Brexit again. The analysis found that nearly two-thirds of ex-Leave supporters now thought Brexit would be bad for the British economy.

The researchers also found that another factor in the apparent swing to Remain was the tendency of those who didn’t vote in the 2016 referendum to say they would now vote to stay in the EU. Fully 56 per cent of the previous non-participants said they would now vote Remain, compared with only 19 per cent who now backed Leave.

When researchers extrapolated from the survey data to see what the outcome would be if the electorate were again asked the 2016 EU referendum question - ‘Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?’ – they found a hypothetical 55 per cent majority for Remain. This would suggest the 52-48 Leave vote registered in the 2016 EU referendum had now become a 55-45 majority in favour of Remain."

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-will-of-people-poll-leave-remain-eu-second-referendum-vote-centre-social-research-curtice-a8839996.html

I don't think I am the only one struggling to understand just which part of no longer exist or have died you are referring to

I give up.

You lot tell me how you would describe something which no longer contains exactly the same components that it had on one day three years ago.

Yes, do give up.
It may have changed slightly for Leave voters and also changed slightly for Remain voters.
Any referendum we may have ( should that happen) is unknown, but could be as the polls suggest for a GE, pretty close. There is no point to any speculation MaizieD

You lot tell me how you would describe something which no longer contains exactly the same components that it had on one day three years ago.
I would describe it as not being 17.4 million now.

Two queries! a) why did a vast majority of MP's vote for article 50 when as remainers , they were totally opposed to brexit ? and b) why did the two main parties go to the country on the back of delivering brexit when in fact as remainers, again they were totally opposed to it, and in the case of some MP's determined to bring brexit down? Surely this is the epitome of dishonesty, particularly the former!!
Their careers?!!!!

If there were another referendum, surely it would have to be run like the first one?! Or, would leave be off the ballot paper and just Mrs May's deal (or whatever) or Remain be the choice?

Perhaps there would be three choices. Mrs May's deal, Remain, or crash out with no deal.

That's probably what it's going to come down to anyway.

A quote from The Independent:
"Theresa May is set to push ahead with a critical vote on part of her Brexit deal after overcoming the speaker’s ban on repeatedly putting the same plan to MPs.

Commons leader Andrea Leadsom confirmed the government will exclude any decision on Britain’s future relations with the EU in Friday’s vote - focusing solely on the withdrawal agreement."
I'm speechless, she has caved in completely to the extreme brexiteers in her party.

Fennel I agree, but why are you speechless? TM has done nothing but cave in to these extreme brexiters since she became PM.

Who else is going to support such a deal? The DUP? The LP?
I'm glad I won't be around tomorrow night to watch it.
If what the Independent says is correct. You never know with the press.

ps and add that I have the added stress of a husband who can't stop ranting about it.

I would describe it as not being 17.4 million now.

Hallelujah! That is precisely what I was trying to do. Except that it is referred to as the 17.4 million as if it was a discrete and unchanged entity. Which it isn't

For goodness sake MaizieD !!

Neither is the exact number of those who voted to remain.

In any case, when anyone refers to the 17.4 million who voted to Leave the EU they mean the actual voters who voted in the referendum on the day, what the heck does it matter if any numbers have changed ( on either side.)