"You cannot betray the six million people"

It matters if you are talking about the "will of the (British) people". As David Davis said " a democracy is not a democracy if it cannot change its mind".

Funny how the will of the 17.4 million people who voted for Brexit can be betrayed but not the 6 plus million who have signed this dubious on line petition.

A democracy is not a democracy if it refuses to accept the will of the majority and does everything it can think of to subvert it.

The "will" of these 17.4 million has been indulged ad- infinitum for the last three years and at long last the British people have had enough of this brexit nonsense.

Yes, I'm sure everyone has had enough, I certainly have especially from remainers who simply wont accept the referendum result.

You don't indulge the will of the majority varian; you respect it.

When does 'the majority' from 2016 become history? In a fast-moving world it's just not logical to think those decisions should still carry weight almost 3 years later. So Parliament are making decisions today based on a historical figure. The world has moved on whilst we're stuck in a time warp.

The 'will of the people' in 2016 is not the same as the 'will of the people” in 2019.
Anyway, it was always a nonsense expression. 'Democracy' also seems to have lost its meaning. You can now twist and turn it any way you like. As long as it respects the 'will of the people'.

Well said, Ginny42 and Greta

The Uk has over 60 million people so 45 million will be of voting age. That is over 7 bunches of 6 million people. How can you please all? You can't; you have a system where all vote a representative and they do it on our behalf. That is called democracy and not individuals voting in groups of a million or more.

Donald Tusk is a busy man and was just as fed up as we all are. He has to speak English after all and I think if there had been more UK people speaking German and/or French there would have been a better understanding of basics.

According to EU rules ( those silly rules some would like to be done with) 75% of the voting public public is a majority everything else is just advisory.

Once again I will ask the same question that others have asked: Why are Leavers worried about a vote on the current facts? If so convinced that it is 'the will of the people' they should be asking for one.

No, I don't expect a reply, never had one before.

I want to know why MP's overwhelmingly voted to trigger article 50 when they clearly had no intention of honouring it?! Also why both the main party's went into the GE on the back of delivering brexit, when all some of them really want to do is wreck it?! I don't expect any answers to this either Nonnie!!

Who, apart from remainers, say that leavers are afraid of another vote Nonnie? I'm not afraid of another vote, I'm just disgusted that so many are seeking to simply ignore the 17.4 million votes for Brexit.

Nonnie

^Once again I will ask the same question that others have asked: Why are Leavers worried about a vote on the current facts? If so convinced that it is 'the will of the people' they should be asking for one.

No, I don't expect a reply, never had one before.^

I have responded to a similar post and will repeat to you.

The majority of Leavers have no issue with a second referendum dependant on the questions asked.
However the majority accept that we live in a democratic society. We were asked a question and told the government would enact the result. The government accepted what the legal majority decision was and good or bad at least the populous felt that for once they had been heard. The majority MPs voted for Article 50 to be invoked. A general election was held where both major parties had within their manifesto's a promise to uphold the referendum result, although a reduced majority the conservatives were re-elected.
Now considering all of this, if the shoe was on the other foot I am sure you and the remainers would also feel aggrieved. Imagine being told you could have an ice cream, be taken to the van, the cone is offered then snatched away saying no we've decided you cant have it. A simplified scenario I know but a betrayal of trust.
Democracy is a fragile gift, we have only to look to countries with dictators to see what can happen when the politicos think they are the only ones with foresight and intellect and the illiterati need putting back in their boxes..
There thats why.

Joelsnan excellent post.

A democracy is not a democracy if it refuses to accept the will of the majority and does everything it can think of to subvert it

Spot on Smileless.

After general elections do we have a recount because the other party, the one we didn't vote for, form the government? No, no matter how small their majority/number of seats.

The trouble is, the lack of acceptance of the outcome of the referendum and wealthy people using their riches to try to overthrow the result - "because they know better".

This is the action of arrogant people with a dreadful sense of superiority and entitlement, who protest until they get their own way.

I voted to remain, was surprised that "my side" lost, but accept that we did and that the outcome of the democratic vote should be respected. I am vehemently opposed to another referendum. If there were one I'd break the habit of a lifetime and not turn out to vote.

Maggiemaybe I have many friends who voted to remain, but like you, they think the result should be respected and they don't march or sign petitions.

The middle class elite are the very reason for the uprising of populism - something all left wingers should respect. (Most dismiss populism as a bad smell.) The people on the street are not being heard, their lives don't matter - they are expected to put up and shut up and accept their 'betters' know what is best for them,

No more. We fought for equality and the right to be heard. Throughout Europe and EU member states there is serious unrest. Macron HAD to listen to the people (in yellow vests) when they protested in France. Europeans tend not to roll over and die when they feel aggrieved.

When the British stood up to be counted (at a referendum) people who voted differently were horrified and wanted to push the 17.4 million back down. How dare they! They are still trying to do it and have succeeded in stalling Brexit.

It is worth mentioning that many academics and professionals are amongst that Leave number. You hear very little from them as they have the sense not to feed the indignant Remainers when they demand to know "Why?"

Lack of acceptance in the face of loss is (in a democracy) peevish arrogance.

Most dismiss populism as a bad smell

What is populism? Who dismisses it? Is it the same as snoberry?

What a truly desperate situation.

Yes, but democracy doesn't just mean first past the post, plus, there is a major review of constituency areas under way with the intention to create 600 areas of roughly equal size by population thus reducing the number of MPs from 650.

Report here boundarycommissionforengland.independent.gov.uk/2018-review/

So even representative democracy changes and part of the change is the consideration of whether there will be winners and losers amongst the political parties (answer yes), discussion here: fullfact.org/law/constituency-boundary-change-proposals/

'You have to remember one thing about the will of the people, not so long ago we were swept away by the macarena' and other similar thoughts - www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/democracy

Quite why we should all be bound by a ramshackle, ill informed, corrupt shambles of a vote taken three years ago defeats me. There was a recent Irish Times article pointing out that the UK could learn from recent Irish referendums which showed how they formed a basis for discussion and openness to change, including rerunning them.

Quite why we should all be bound by a ramshackle, ill informed, corrupt shambles of a vote taken three years ago defeats me

Isn't it strange?
We all knew the referendum as on the cards. During the run up it was a contest between two sides and most people I know thought long and hard about our position in the EU and voted accordingly. We had plenty of time to decide which way to go and much as Remainers like to wail "Blame the Bus" most of us had a good idea about our feelings for Brussels and the EU.

There were no - "STOP! WE CANNOT HAVE A REFERENDUM" groups then, were there?

However, AFTER the result. the process and outcome was torn apart by remainers - because they lost.

We knew long before the referendum in 2016 the result would be honoured by all parties. (Huh - we are still waiting.)

Strangely after the event, according to those who lost, we have all been bamboozled and it should never have happened.

Millions and millions are glad it did. You cannot get away from that fact.

If Remainers had won they would have wanted the decision to stand.

Strange, eh?

smileless Joelsnan* Thank you both for responding, no one else has done that in all the months I have been asking the question.

I don't think there is any dispute that there was electoral fraud which, alone, should make the vote null and void but hasn't because the referendum was 'advisory'. In addition to that I do know people who believed many of the lies told by the Leave campaign and for that I partly blame the complacent Remain team. The BBC should also answer some questions because even today they went to a very Leave area and only interviewed people who showed they really didn't understand what Leave meant. They always seem to go and ask people in lower skilled jobs for their opinion and I think there should be more balanced reporting.

Whether a vote on the actual offer is 'right' or not I think it is the only way to solve the impasse. MPs are clearly not able to do it so it seems the only option apart from no deal which we are told almost no one wants. Hopefully if we do have one there will be a much bigger majority one way or another. Unfortunately I think a lot of people have taken entrenched views and are not open to have been possibly mistaken in 2016.

Nonnie
Do you know I watched question time last night and I had to turn it off because a woman on there was repeating exactly the same mantra as all remainers on here:
It was a fraudulent referendum
We were lied to
It is only advisory etc.etc.
We now know more
Its as though part of our society has been hyponotised by some subversive entity because has been repeated time and time and time again by every disappointed remainer.
Don't you think that if there was a viable shred of evidence the 600 and something remain MPs would have used any of these accusations at the outset to claim foul play and have the referendum legally declared null and void...simples, so why didnt they do it?

Joelsnan there is plenty of evidence but, as I said above, they decided to ignore it because the referendum was advisory. They said that if the referendum had legal standing then it would have been treated differently.

Have you not heard about Aaron Banks case?

I disagree that it is as if hypnotised, people keep saying it because they believe it, quite natural. Some of us believe the often quoted 'All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing' and consequentially try to do something.

I don't turn anything off because I don't like the message, I am still open to persuasion that my view is wrong but I have yet to hear the rational reasons for leaving. I've heard plenty about not allowing brown people in, straight bananas, EU non-elected, EU leader drinks too much etc but none of those persuades me that we would be better off out. I've also seen too many pathetic comments like 'You lost, get over it', 'we are going out too bad' and some using language I'm not prepared to use. I can't help it if the BBC want to fill the news with people who want to leave but clearly have no understanding of the consequences. It would help me if they would interview leavers with rational arguments so I could listen and be converted.

in our democracy the majority of those who voted, voted leave. The supposed 6 million is irrelevant. the 17.4 million are the majority, Easy to comprehend.

We the majority voted Leave and so leave it will be.

The minority can not and will will not rule over the majority.

Leave won.