Playing with fire

What is right about hitting (that is what it is, do not dress it up as smacking) a vunerable human being.

My father often had the belt at school.
His crime?
He was deaf and could not hear the teacher.

I join the list of the empty headed idiots too !
The idea of being "reasoned with" that seems prevalent at the moment makes me wonder if it has any bearing on the horrendous way that some teenagers behave now. Do you reckon that the killers of so many teens that are being stabbed to death ( and worse, one lad from nearby was then attacked with a hammer that his assailant went home to fetch) could be "reasoned with"??

" Learned behaviour " from who and why, Trisher ?

There is absolutely no evidence at all that young people today who behave badly wherever reasoned with in their upbringing - almost certainly the reverse. They were probably never taught to think about their reactions and behaviour and learned that shouting, screaming, threatening and hitting out were the ways to behave. Bringing up children properly never ever ever needs to involve physical punishment - you are not allowed to physically punish adults with impunity so why children?

My thoughts too, when Scotland were holding their independence vote, I thought that they were very lucky to have that opportunity. I would love the opportunity of voting for the North of England to be independent from those London centrist politicians who don't appear to even know we exist.

I went to my first school in Scotland. There, if we were naughty, we got the ‘strop’, a leather strap cut into ribbons at one end -a miniature cat o’ nine tails. This was used on the palm of the hand and did it sting!! If we were caught licking the hand on the way to the front of the class (rumour had it that it reduced the pain) we were given an extra one. I don’t think it had any lasting effect on me but, if I imagine putting a four or five year old through that now, I am horrified. The teacher was a previously retired lady who had been called back because of a shortage of teachers due to WWII. I suspect that her methods were old-fashioned even then.

When an adult hits a child, it’s not even the pain that is the issue, it’s the message it sends. It’s ok if you’re bigger and stronger to physically attack someone smaller and weaker.

We are never going to get agreement about punishment. To smack or not to smack, that is the question. In many countries the belt is the punishment of choice for unruly children, Here a light quick smack is now a crime wothy of capital punishment. As an empty headed idiot I did smack my children but it was rare as I was lucky enough to have reasonably well-behaved children.
My daughter married a man who occasionally smacked their only child and now she is 23 she does not hold it against him, They have a loving relationship. I think that is the point: if a light smack is given for misbehaviour, but not threats of losing parental love, or toys being thrown away, or longed for treats with-held. this makes a child feel miserable and unhappy. They understand a quick smack followed up by mum or dad saying "I just had to smack you because of what you did, but I still love you."

I too am an empty headed idiot. As the mother of 3 boys under 5 if I hadn't disciplined them firmly they would've had untold accidents.

Those grans who think any form of physical punishment is wrong are probably the same ones who complain when they are in a restaurant that undisciplined children are running amok and ruining their meal.

Good parents know the different between a smack on the legs or bottom as a reprimand and abusing a child.

Because I did occasionally smack mine they knew I would take no nonsense so I rarely had to. Consequently a look or a stern voice would usually do the trick if they were misbehaving.

And to those who say that smacking creates abusers; my DS does not smack my GDs. He is fairly strict about good manners or if they fight. Usually by grabbing them by the arm and walking them to a seat for a talking to. But they are more gentle than my 3 boys and don't often fight or attempt dare devil stunts.

In my view, it would do more harm than good to ban smacking entirely. And I completely agree with Deeda that it quickly shows the behaviour was wrong without torturing the child and possibly causing psychological damage. Twisting tiny minds with confusing psychological games of deprivation or threats to send them away is more damaging.

Why can’t people get their head around the idea that the alternative to smacking is NOT NOT NOT throwing away toys, threatening the withdrawal of love or treats? ??. I never did any of thst and neither does my dd

EllanVannin I said the parents, but in some cases it's also their peers. If you are bringing a child up in an area where they are surrounded by illegal behaviour, which in many cases pays dividends, where fights and violence are the way things are usually settled it's very difficult to keep your child on track.

maryeliza54 no it doesn't. It sends the message that unacceptable behaviour has consequences.

Attacking someone smaller than you is wrong and most intelligent people know the difference.

Here we go again- deprivation or threats the only alternative. FFS.

Oh do if an adult behaves in an unacceptable way to me, I should just hit him to show that actions have consequences? Ridiculous

No. Stop twisting my words. I did not say that at all.

What do you do with troublesome children then maryeliza54? If you do not ever smack, remove toys or discipline at all. I presume you disapprove of shouting too in case they are traumatised. Do you have a magic wand you wave to produce angelic children?

It's interesting to see how violence is on the increase as smacking children is on the decrease. Discipline is necessary.

I have had the misfortune of meeting many little brats who run circles round their parents, because their form of discipline is asking a 4 year old to behave and having no sanctions, or even a 'stern mode' for when they are completely ignored.

I do not know whether to laugh or cry when I see a mother or father trying to reason in a very grown up manner with 4 year old screaming Jocasta.

Whatever happened to "I said NO, and I mean it, so enough of that!" to deter tantrums?

I still like the oft heard "I'll give you something to cry about in a minute!"from no-nonsense parents of yore.

Of course that manner of speaking to a child has been out-lawed.

As I saw when I was a social worker the worst behaved children/teenagers were those who had been smacked/hit often (from babyhood)

Urmstongran I agree with your point that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.

No one wants to see a return to Dickensian whippings but the liberal approach isn't working. Undisciplined children are developing into young adults that know nothing will happen if they do unacceptable things to people. They have not been taught it is wrong and life is a bit uncomfortable if you do bad things.

Teachers are struggling with violent pupils who tell them to do one or worse, attack them. They can do nothing to these kids bar exclude them and if they end up in young offenders they are rewarded with computer games, square meals and drugs on tap.

It's a sorry state of affairs. When I was small I knew I would get a wallop if I did something unacceptable. I grew up just fine and have raised 3 sons who are respectful hard working and kind.

It's rubbish to say that the odd smack here and there or going to your room or suchlike is abuse.

God save us from softie, clueless liberals.

The best discipline is children knowing that their parents expect something done FIRST time, if asked.

Unfortunately, the majority of parents are too namby pamdy to be able to instil this from a very young age so they resort to smacking, shouting or a long discussion about the incident, which the child usually takes no notice of whatever so ever, as it's usually repeated and they've heard the 'chat' so many times before! ....See mumsnet discussion about the father who couldn't get his child to leave a playdate so left without her and the mother had to send him back!!!

Most parents seem unable to distinguish between fairly mild silly, but normal childish behaviour, and something more serious as I hear them screaming at their kids in the same manner for both!! Choose your battles to fight, I say e.g. always hold hands to cross the road, ignore the silliness as long as it doesn't affect others too much and praise, praise, praise when they choose to do the sensible option.

Mycatisahacker....how I agree ...those endless , endless lectures when my grandchildren are bored into submission of wrongdoing . Thank heaven I was brought up in the 50/60’s, when a quick clout would suffice...succinct and to the point ! My mum had six of us and sitting explaining why you shouldn’t do something wasn’t an option. ,.. she also had three jobs and a sick parent to look after! None of us ‘went bad’ none ended in prison , none even got divorced , the lads didn’t get girls’unto trouble’ and us girls avoided trouble as well...though u don’t think it was through lack of trying!

I totally agree Breeze----especially with your last paragraph.
It's PC gone insane with so many trouble-making accusations/exaggerations.

My 15 month old child was adventurous, independent and fascinated by electric plug sockets. We lived in a small flat where there were storage difficulties eg I had to keep my knitting needles in a roll behind the top sliding glass door of a bookcase. We were well aware of her interest in everything and in the days before we were able to buy socket covers could only keep them out of her reach by moving furniture in front.
One day, we found her, under an easy chair, having upturned the rubbish bin in the kitchen. Here she had found an apple core which she was attempting to push into the socket. With hindsight, maybe I should have put disconnected plugs in to all empty sockets but this was 50 years ago and I didn't.
As recommended by good Dr Spock I removed her from her chosen socket and presented her with other interesting diversions which made her scream.... no books.... no dolls etc
Five minutes later and unable to walk at the time, she squirmed up to the back rest of the sofa and balanced along the edge, reaching over to open the sliding door of the bookcase and remove a knitting needle This she carried carefully down and was seen approaching the same socket obviously with the intention of inserting the needle.
So, what was my solution? I gave her a quick slap across her leg. She screamed at the indignity of it and I attempted an explanation.
Interestingly she never tried it again( at least not when I was around) and grew up to become a chartered engineer.
What alternatives would GNers have suggested?... i do not think any of my children needed more than 1 slap to learn the required lesson and also to extrapolate to other situations.

A 2 year old behaves if asked to ?

A slap is necessary to a defiant child who ignores a situation where danger is an issue. The sheer shock and sting of a hand on the legs/bottom is enough to discourage it from doing it again.

GNers sometimes live very sheltered lives. Having taught children from homes where the accepted way of dealing with things was a quick slap, a clip round the ear or even a good hiding, administered on an ad hoc basis when the parent felt like it, I can tell you physical punishment doesn't work. What does work are firm boundaries with clear consequences which are consistently applied. Always with a reasonable face-saving route for those children who have reached breaking point. Hitting doesn't work, is still used and still encourages violence amongst some families and should have no place in a civilised society. And whilst you relate all these stories, of how hitting your child once did no harm, and they turned out all right, you are actively supporting (even if you don't mean to) those parents for whom hitting their children is really nothing to do with the child's behaviour, but a way of coping with their own feelings.