Is this the face of fascism?

GGmk3 thank you.
My point precisely.

If you are speaking about me GG, I assure you that I have been neither angry nor in my opinion unreasonable. I actually said that I have sympathy ie agree with, much of what mcem actually said. What I took issue with is the manner in which some of the post was written, in particular the words 'ignorant rant.' Now you may think that is perfectly polite, but I beg to differ. Please GG could you direct me to the post where I said I was ready to use my vote to ruin other people's lives. Do you know that I voted remain?

Can you elaborate what exactly your point is please mcem?

Unless your name is also Moggie maddyone, no, I was not talking about you.

It is, of course, open to anyone, to point out any single fact they can find in the post made by Moggie.

No. I won't repeat what I have explained twice, backed by other posters.
Post not poster. Correct use of language. That's it!

Thank you GG.

And no, my name is not also Moggie although I have usually owned a cat. Sadly we had to have our last moggie put to sleep a few weeks ago.

It's interesting that those who voted Brexit are being aligned with Farage and, ultimately, with supporting fascists.

This is strange as those from the left of politics have also been very anti-EU , in particular Corbyn before he started prevaricating and Tony Benn, who could hardly be accused of being thoughtless or ignorant as he was a very thoughtful and erudite man - and to the left of politics.

It's never a good idea to throw out insults to those who may disagree with you as it demonstrates that you are losing the argument.

Are you trying to say that those of us who are pointing out that supporting Farage is supporting a fascist are 'from the left of politics' and were anti EU ourselves, Callistomen?

I hope you are not, because you'd be making a very big and mistaken assumption. (We'd have voted Leave if that were the case, wouldn't we?)

It's never a good idea to throw out insults to those who may disagree

Oh, FGS. Is isn't an insult, it's a warning.

are you trying to say that
Another Maizieism!!
Another gem

Glad you enjoyed it, Cal.

So what were you saying?

Because if you think that accusations of fascism are just coming from the left wing you're much mistaken.

I didn't say that at all.

But I did ponder if some who voted Brexit may have read all of Tony Benn's arguments anti-EU and agreed with them.
And have been a staunch Corbyn supporter in his anti-EU days.

Farage and Benn would have made unusual allies but had one common purpose.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Read it again Ggmk3

I have done as you ... requested. My post seems to be a relevant reply to your post. Do you think you should have been clearer perhaps if it is so easy to misunderstand and then difficult to see in what way I misunderstood?

Moggie I've only just read the last few pages of this thread and would like to take issue with you on the subject of health and safety.

Do you remember the Marchioness (capsized on the Thames) and the Herald of Free Enterprise (in the Channel)? In both these cases health and safety regulations were ignored. There are hundreds of incidents in docks around the country which have resulted in fatalities or serious injuries.

Health and Safety regulations are extremely important in order to prevent accidents and save lives. I am sometimes appalled when I’m in other countries and I come across amazingly dangerous situations, often with no barriers or warnings. And many of these situations have been in Europe so I really don’t think that the EU is to blame for British safety regulations unless other countries simply ignore the regulations. We have good Health and Safety in the workplace and in the country at large, but it can always be improved. I don’t understand why people blame the EU and complain about the EU for us having good regulations which protect people.
I’m not sure I’ve worded that very well, I hope you can understand.

Ever since we joined the EU, the media have reported all kinds of legislation as caused by EU bossiness. Some of it was completely made-up when there was a shortage of real news - regulations on the shape of bananas and so on.

Successive governments have hidden behind the EU when they wanted to pass things that they thought would be unpopular, and taken credit for anything built or provided with EU grants.

In some countries, EU-funded projects have large billboards proclaiming where the money for them came from. Not here. To find out "What has the EU ever done for us?" you have to search for the facts.

Put your postcode into the searchbox at www.myeu.uk/ and see on the interactive map what your area has received. You will probably be amazed. OK, the site was set up by Best for Britain, a Remain-backing pressure group, but facts are facts - and can be verifed if you doubt them.

What the EU is NOT good at is explaining things in everyday language.

For instance: "In 2017, the EU provided THE BIKE PROJECT £43,613 as part of the Fostering inclusive, innovative and reflective European societies (08.02.03.06) programme.

"This grant was from the EU budget centrally administered by the Commission."

The Bike Project is a scheme that upcycles second-hand bikes and donates them to refugees, which might be a better way of explaining things.

But it is our money they are giving back to us.
In 2018 we paid the EU 13 billion and got back just 4 billion.

Firecracker the same old tired arguments about getting 'our own money back'. Sigh. When you are part of a group, a nation, a commonwealth of countries if you wish, there will always be some who pay more than others, chiefly because, in the case of the EU, we are one of the wealthier countries and it is in our interests to help other countries to improve their standards of schools, hospitals, industries or whatever. Nobody anywhere gets what back only what they put in, some win, some lose. There will always be some who receive more from the state in terms of education, health, use of motorways or whatever, than others. I am fortunate to not have needed, so far, much from the NHS for example, and I do not begrudge those who do need more. I may not have expressed this clearly, but basically, being a member of a club is not just about making a profit, or getting back what you put in financially.

I wonder if you have ever belonged to a club Firecracker? Let's think about a golf club. People are employed and paid. Buildings maintained and contracts with suppliers, etc., made for your benefit. There may be a case that, to encourage the neighbours to join so they are positive and cooperative they are offered a discounted rate to join the club. Another group, including you, may get a smaller discount or refund because of what you bring to the club. Perhaps those who need help now and will help the club in the future - members children perhaps - may be given free membership which comes partly from your fee. It may even be going back to your own children. All these things are done in your interest and agreed by an elected committee and you pay a fee for it.

Why would you expect to get it all back?

I'll agree to disagree. I don't want to be in the EU club, the ever growing United States of Europe, I want the UK to decide where we spend our money and no I don't want to subsidise poorer members because I don't want to be a member, that's why I and 17.5 million voted to Leave.

I know you wouldn't believe it but there is no intention for there to be a United States of Europe. Who or what convinced you that there would be?

I'm afraid there is no agreeing to disagree as our opinions, however far from the truth they are, alter other people's lives. You are one of the "if only". If only we could leave the EU things would be better" but you can never factually tell us how it would be "better". I think we are a great country. Why don't you?

I think what many leavers do not put into the equation, is the amount every individual benefits from being a member every time they shop for food, buy a car, benefit from scientific research - it goes on and on. The value of those benefits must be absolutely immense, and I suspect far outnumber what we pay.

The average amount each individual pays to the EU is about £32 per annum or 61p per week.

If there is a no deal our food will immediately go up by 20%. According to the good industry leaders.

So mine will go up £120 + 20% = £2.40 per week.

Include all the other tariffs and we will be paying far more than we do now.