Corbyn as caretaker

Just read the article from the link you posted Minniemoo from the long reads in the Guardian. It was very interesting!
Thank you. I’ve saved it to ‘Pocket’ (my favourite free app) to share!

I agree with you that it's probable that the country is moving towards a General Election. However, it is almost impossible for that to take place before 31 October, which means that the UK will already have left the EU.

IF Labour were to win an election (and I really do think it's a big IF), Corbyn wouldn't be discussing a withdrawal deal, but picking up the pieces and negotiating brand new agreements with the EU on a whole range of issues, which is something else entirely.

As it stands, it would appear that Corbyn is still in favour of leaving the EU, which is why the LibDems can't agree with him.

From my perspective, I must admit that what's happening now seems like an attempted power grab by Corbyn.

My belief is that the Conservatives and Labour still see this as a power game. Both major parties are in trouble and are attempting to save themselves. My money is on the Conservatives gaining a majority of seat sin a General Election, but without an overall majority or any kind of consensus, in which case democracy in this country will have been severely damaged. The SNP, Plaid and Greens won't prop up a Conservative government and I'd be surprised if the LibDems repeat their last mistake. From what I've seen, the LDs are averse to any kind of promise of coalition, especially with a Conservative Party led by Johnson or any of the other right wingers.

PS. Most of my friendships pre-date the referendum by many years. I really don't see that it's difficult to understand that close friends would have the same values and outlook on life. It's because we have similar values and outlook (which we discuss) that most of my friends voted to remain. I've never conscientiously rejected people because they voted to leave, although I find some of the reasons they give quite hard to stomach. We just don't have enough in common to be close in the first place.

I agree with "growstuff". The few leave voters I know tend to have been born too late to have fought in WW2. The few I know who took part in WW2 tend to be Remainers. I too cannot understand the reasons for voting Leave but to be fair back in June 2016 the reasons for voting Remain were quite often vague. As more has come out the impending disaster of leaving has come into sharper focus.

Vote leave was certainly run better but they told so many lies and whipped up a latent mistrust of foreigners causing many to vote with their hearts and not their heads. In the cold light of today only the most ardent Brexiteers still feel they are right.

The EU has many faults but we are better off in where we can have a say in fixing many of them.

Your PS is exactly the point I was trying to make, growstuff. But when one is trying to debate with someone who thinks that r, e, m, a, i, n, e, r, spells 'leaver' and makes sanctimonious comments about things that have not been said one does wonder if the point will be understood. And even if we are speaking the same language.

FWIW I don't think it's a Corbyn power grab; he wouldn't be able to do anything beyond stopping no deal. Any attempt to do more would have him the recipient of a VONC and he'd be out on his ear.

Rather than explaining, the Guardian article "describes* what one sees from the viewpoint of one freelance writer. It's an opinion piece rather than a factual article. If you look him up on LinkedIn, he's obviously very young and a fairly recent Cambridge Uni graduate. I found it quite sneering and akin to the kind of thing an A level student might write.

I'm very ambivalent about Corbyn, Maizie. I really don't trust him nor his puppeteer, Seamus Milne. As Swinson wrote in her letter to him, I don't think the numbers add up, because some Tories such as Dominic Grieve would never vote against their own party to put Corbyn in power.

On the other hand, if it's the only way to stop the madness, so be it. Johnson's gung-ho approach can only end in disaster for the country.

A good night's sleep and another day. Whatever is happening on here minniemoo I am really sorry to hear you are still subject to abuse for just being who you are.

Thank you, Grandad, I am so glad you can see that- and right back at you. So yes, we know about LP's Conference decisions. We know that JC wants a GE rather than a second ref and we know he is against a No Deal Exit. Clear.

But then ? What then? We DO NOT KNOW what next. It is NOT clear. It seems that he wants to renegotiate- and get a Deal that will protect jobs, leave us with a Customs Union so solve the Irish border issue, and that he does not want FMOP to continue. The EU has been perfectly clear, and totally fairly, to say that kind of deal just cannot and will not, ever be on the table.

It would put the UK in a position where it can pick and choose the best of many worlds- and as such put the Members of the EU at a great disadvantage. And as such, it just cannot be accepted. This is not the EU being 'difficult' - it is not Juncker being stubborn, or Barnier being a silly Frenchman. It is simply and totally sensibly saying 'no, we cannot accept a Deal that puts our own members at a big disadvantage. It is entirely understandable and clear. But Corbyn goes on to say that he believes such a Deal (and yes, I have called it 'cake and eat with unicorns... and a cherry and whipped cream on top too') is possible because he is a much better negotiator than Mrs May.

And it is NONSENSE. And worse than that, it is a massive gamble, and wasting precious time- time wasted which will very possibly see us thrown into a No Deal.

Johnson's pupetteers are now forbidding all interviews with him- as they know he does not know the facts and will hoist himself on his own stinking petard- so they have cut his tongue, so to speak. They know the whole thing is unravelling- and that he would be the last straw if allowed to talk.

From Chris Haskins in the Yorkshire Post:

'Major disruption to the sophisticated automotive supply chain puts thousands of jobs in jeopardy. Big companies, like British Steel, which sends one-quarter of its sales to the EU, face paying tariffs of more than 20 per cent on them.

Airbus, employing thousands of people in North Wales and elsewhere in Britain, are considering relocation to mainland Europe. Many large Japanese companies who chose the UK as their base for trading across the EU are thinking again. Welsh farmers who sell the majority of their lambs to the EU are facing the devastating prospect of having to pay a 40 per cent tariff on these sales.

Meanwhile the Johnson government is proposing to spend billions to mitigate the effect of all this on its hapless citizens which means it will have far less to spend on health, schools, social security and infrastructure. Further pressure will come on the pound as markets fret about the UK’s financial resilience.

Farmers will, overnight, lose their huge EU subsidies. Could the Treasury afford to replace them? The Government plans to renege on the £39bn owed to the EU, but as this will surely be contested in the courts, it would be irresponsible to spend this.

Holidaymakers will face long delays as they work their way through passport controls at airports and ports, and when they get to their destination could find prices 20 per cent higher than a year ago.

The millions of UK nationals living in the EU face an uncertain and bleak future. EU citizens living in the UK feel equally vulnerable. Without a deal, the migrant workers who keep our fruit and vegetable farms and factories viable and underpin the construction industry, will accelerate their planned departures.

There is a clear risk of friction between British and French fishermen as they seek to do business in each others’ disputed territories. The lucrative export shell fish trade to the EU from struggling coastal towns like Bridlington is bound to implode.

And then there is Ireland. Unless the minority Democratic Unionist Party changes its mind and agrees to making the Irish Sea the tariff barrier between Britain and the EU, border controls between the North and the South will have to be reintroduced, thereby undermining the Good Friday Agreement, and reviving the fearful prospect of terrorism.

The complete dissolution of the United Kingdom is a distinct consequence of a no-deal Brexit as the Scots, already extremely concerned about English dominance over their future, will resist a Brexit deal being imposed upon them by their assertive neighbour. If the Scots go their own way the Welsh will surely follow.

This, in turn, will diminish the influence of England in the international scene. It would be hard to justify her retaining a permanent seat in the UN Security council.

The 100,000 largely wealthy members of the Conservative Party, who have brought to fruition this state of affairs by appointing Boris Johnson as their leader and as Prime Minister, are rich enough to take all this in their stride.

They can afford to indulge in the nostalgia of England’s glorious, imperial past and their aversion to foreigners, especially French and Germans.

But the ones who suffer worst in an economic meltdown are the poor, many of whom have been attracted to the dangerous, racist populist appeal of the Brexiteer movement. And their chronic low expectations from society could be a source of civil unrest which could lead to fearsome consequences.

So, before millions of trusting Brexiteers are led over the precipice by their evangelical if misguided leaders, it might be worth pondering for the last time whether the sacrifice is worth it, in that original promises of opportunity and freedom have not been realised, whereas the negative consequences of Brexit now seem more dire and unavoidable.'

It is tragic that it is the very people who are the most vociferous against Remainers who want to avoid this. Remainers ,on the whole, have probably an awful lot less to lose. Gove and others have now had to admit that both industry and agriculture will be destroyed in the case of No Deal - and yet it seems that those are the people who voted massively for Leave.

And you call us selfish, and arrogant?

Minniemoo- I so agree with you on this one

'If you want to be with everyone who thinks the same as you, or sits on the fence, which I'm sure many do with the more verbose, then you're missing out. '

we have family and friends all over the world- so many cultures, religions- all ages too. Some live in the back of their vans, others are multimillionaires- and we certainly do not always agree, for sure. And that is great.

But sorry, we have our 'lines' - they are very few, but some cannot be moved and never will be. The absolute one is racism. If family or friends cross this one, not in a silly joke but in a comment they clearly mean - they are out of my/our life.

This Yorkshire Post article gives a realistic assessment of the dangers we face.

The shocking government Yellowhammer document which has been leaked to The Sunday Times shows that these dangers are real. This is not "project fear". It is utterly shocking that our country has been put in such danger.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-deal-brexit-planning-assumptions-the-leaked-operation-yellowhammer-document-797qxkrcm

How I agree with you jura2. Racism is close to my heart due to my ancestry and it can be disheartening to say the least.

Many thanks as well to GGMK3.

And yes, Urmstongran. The article is rather interesting and a lot of its content is evident on forums such as this.

Growstuff! I'm surprised that you dismiss it so easily, saying it sounds like an A Level student. I thought it was the young you were concerned about!

As I have blathered on endlessly, we can all find articles that suit our beliefs.

As for friends. Some of my best friends, (if I'm not too old to use that term) are Remainers. We don't spit and hiss at each other when we meet up for our regular outings.

So no, we don't always have to hang out with people who share our political beliefs. I would find life very dull to mix with people who all think the same as me.

Minniemoo- I so agree with you on this one

'If you want to be with everyone who thinks the same as you, or sits on the fence, which I'm sure many do with the more verbose, then you're missing out. '

Jeez! NO-ONE ACTUALLY SAID THAT, jura.

How can we have any sort of rational discussion if people actually invent stuff that hasn't been written in the thread to get indignant about?

Maizie. Unless people agree with you there is no way anyone can have a reasonable discussion.

And please read what my comment again. I was referring mainly to a TV show and an article which suggested Remainers were unlikely to date Leavers. Whereas Leavers weren't as concerned.

That was it.

Then someone suggested that like minded people stick together which is fine.

But limiting.

I've had many people telling me to get back to where I'm from

Awful and I suspect fairly common.

It is common actually, Lessismore. Not as bad today, thankfully. We're fully integrated and have many friends of all colours! However, my children were also subjected to this. One of my worst memories was being at a beach with my children. Many years ago now. Playing in rock pools. Two small children joined them with their buckets and spades and they were all playing happily.

The older sister, ( I assumed) of the other 2 dashed over, snatched the bucket from my 3 year old son's hand and made a big deal of 'washing' it. Then grabbed the children and led them away.

Their mother silently watched.

Not that that has anything to do with this thread.

I am obviously persona non grata here so I shall bid you all good luck.

PS I still don't believe we'll leave with No Deal.

jura2,in regard to your post @-09:51 today, I totally agree with you in not understanding persons who do not wish to engage with the diverse opinions expressed on a forum such a this.

In the above we seem to have a number who criticise the views and opinions of others while not ever posting their alternate views for counter criticism.

When the above is carried out I believe it demonstrates that such persons have little faith in their own ability to defend their opinions and that is the reasoning behind what they effectuate.

Hey jura2, me and you already agreeing twice in one day on this forum. We will have to cut this out or there will be many PMs flying about in regard to us. ?

Why would there be any pm’s ? ?

You make many assumptions, Minniemoo.

I've reached a stage in my life when I don't have to tolerate people who have beliefs and values, with which I profoundly disagree. I have a close group of friends and it just so happens that most of them voted to remain. It was never a conscious decision to choose these people as friends and I don't suppose they chose me on that basis either.

In any case, why is this even being discussed? All I did was mention that the people I know, most of whom voted to remain, don't believe the EU is perfect, thus disagreeing with something Pantglas wrote. One of them is now an MEP and even she doesn't think it's perfect!

How about discussing the original claim?

Grandad I am not going to walk down the road, find somebody who voted to leave, invite them for a coffee to discuss opposing views. I meet people during my various activities and I'm perfectly civil, but most of them aren't "friends". Sometimes they say things which cause a sharp intake of breath, so I just ignore them.

That's why I come on here and engage with people in other discussion groups. I'm well aware that I'm in danger of living in a bubble. I'll discuss with people who have a rational point of view or factual information, but even if I'm persuaded, they're never going to be friends.

Minniemoo I'm sorry that what I assume was a 'typo' on your part has attracted such vitriol; it was perfectly clear what you meant. Others have made similar mistakes on here too but they have passed without coment.

I believe what Corbyn stated in regard to a second referendum was that should the Labour Party win a General Election in the coming few weeks then he (or someone appointed as a negotiator) would "attempt" to renegotiate parts of Theresa May's withdrawal agreement. Whatever the outcome of that attempt at renegotiation ( successful or not) would be placed before the British Electorate of a decision.

The above I find very acceptable as the withdrawal agreement negotiated by Theresa May was only ever placed in front of Parliament for a decision, and not before the entire British electorate.

At the time of that Bill being brought before parliament, it did seem to the majority in Britain I am sure that the parliamentary route was the correct way to proceed.

However, I believe, that with the threat of Britain now "crashing out" of the European Union with no deal, a General Election held to decide on that issue should be brought about as first priority.

Then, as stated, should the Labour party win that General Election the Theresa May withdrawal agreement with or without any changes secured by the Labour Government would be put to the electorate. It would then be for us all to decide whether to accept that deal and leave, or remain in the EU on the same terms as now.

The above is the official Labour Party position, and I find little to argue with in that position.