Corbyn as caretaker

Are you a Labour supporter or are you trying to be a stirrer? ;-)

The Conservative/LD coalition is irrelevant and the LD presence resulted in the Conservatives not getting all their own way.

I agree, a general election would solve nothing but would just cause more dissension.

I think Margaret Beckett is perhaps too 'nice' and not ruthless enough to be 'caretaker PM' If this were to ever happen then we would need a caretaker who is not propped up by those who have ulterior motives like those behind Corbyn.
He is so disliked by so many that he is extremely unlikely to bring the country together, something which would be a near impossible task anyway.

I think it really is going to be impossible to bring the country together - at least over the next few years - so that can't be a priority. It needs to be somebody who will forget about tribal politics and winning party votes. The priority has to be asking for an extension because it's blindingly obvious to anybody that the country isn't prepared. Yes, it will mean a few demos, so it needs to be somebody who is tough enough not to cave into "blackmail".

If Jeremy Corbyn is not considered a fit and proper person to lead a government of National Unity as would be expected, how can he ever be considered a fit and proper person to lead the country if , god forbid, Labour win the next G.E?! Pushing him to one side must be telling us all, and him, 'something'!!!

A question for Grandad ' has JC committed, unequivocably, to a second Ref and fully 100% back Remain'?

(I do think I know the answer- but would like to hear from you, thanks)

^rabid - having or proceeding from extreme or fanatical support of or belief in something.
Example: "the show's small but rabid fan base"
synonyms: extreme, fanatical, overzealous, over-enthusiastic, extremist, violent, maniacal, wild, passionate, fervent, diehard, uncompromising.

I do not think Grandads use of the word rabid is wrong although I think, at times in the whole Brexit saga, it could be said about many, if not all of us. What I do not understand is what has happened to the Liberals; they just don't seem to be very liberal any more.

However, there are so many currents going on at the moment. Each group; Obsessive Remainers, Moderate Remainers, Moderate Leavers and Obsessive Leavers all seem to have other things they are trying to protect.

This means that Liberal Party Obsessive Remainers will not contemplate working in the best interests of remain if they have to work with Jeremy Corbyn as they are equally obsessive about their own rise to power.

You would think that Moderate Remainers and Moderate Leavers could work with each other but again Party Politics get in the way. It does seem - the only positive I can see, that Moderate Remainers and Moderate Leavers will work with Obsessive Remainers at least until they stop a No-Deal Brexit. But after that, it's anyone's guess. I can see that as soon as they managed to get No-Deal Brexit stopped (if they can put enough of their other prejudices aside to do it) the Obsessive Remainers could well start asking all the "how can you" questions of the Moderate Remainers and Moderate Leavers and the Moderate Remainers and Moderate Leavers could well fall out on the grounds of Party Politics (again).

You can see one group is missing here. All the Obsessive Leavers have to do is sit back and wait for the other groups to find some reason why they cannot work together and they are home. One No-Deal Brexit served up on a platter.

As the one who has been accused of being a "rabid remainer", I have to tell you that the Liberal Democrats have most certainly not ruled out working with Corbyn or anyone else to stop a no deal brexit.

Our aim is to stop brexit altogether. We cannot be half in and half out of the EU and we, like most British people (according to the overwhelming evidence of opinion polls for the last two years or more), believe that it is best for us to remain in the EU.

There is nothing rabid or fanatical about this opinion. It is entirely rational and evidence-based unlike the quasi-religious belief of some leavers in unicorns and rainbows, now morphing into claims that it won't be as bad as WWII.

Jo Swinson has not ruled out working with Corbyn. She merely stated what most MPs know to be true that he will not be able to command a majority in the House of Commons and it would be better to find a more unifying well respected candidate such as Harriet Harman or Ken Clarke.

Grandad

"POGS, you seem to spend a considerable amount of time in "Carping" at all and sundry on this forum and many outside of it in regard to the solutions they put forward to resolve the current crisis this country now finds itself in."
--

My ' carping' as you politely put it must be annoying for those posters who I dare to challenge the points they raise.

My ' carping' will upset posters who don't like their hypocrisy being pointed out or simply want only their opinions heard/read without challenge I guess.

I will to continue to ' carp' and I don't have a problem with you or any other poster who I deem to ' spend a considerable amount of time carping' from doing the same.

Fending off belittling posts is par for the course by the way when it comes from posters I dare to challenge the opinion of, it's a pity you however you have to result to such a style of posting as you usually prefer to defend your opinion not try to shut others down.

Varian

"Our aim is to stop brexit altogether. We cannot be half in and half out of the EU and we, like most British people (according to the overwhelming evidence of opinion polls for the last two years or more), believe that it is best for us to remain in the EU. "
--

That raises the point I keep making.

How can you have a 'Party of Unity' when the Parties are not united?

How can you have a ' Party of Unity' where the respective parties do not agree with the final solution?

How can you have a ' Party of Unity ' that is made up of parties who have spoken of how disgraceful our politics has been and propagandised issues such as ' Unelected Leaders ', ' Proroguing of Parliament, ' Undemocratic Government ' who now think those' priciples' no longer apply because ' They say so'?

A) They hold different opinions as to Remain/Leave.

B) They want a 2nd Referendum but do not agree as to whether they would abide by the result, DISGRACEFUL!

C) They have different views over another Scottish Referendum.

D) They do not agree with each others politics.

E) They don't agree over Article 50. Albeit for a short period they will look united to get what they want and then argue the toss all over again whether to REVOKE or not. Parliament has voted against Revoking Article 50 but hey let's keep going until we get what what ' we' want.

There is no suggesting of a "Party of Unity".

The point of a Government of National Unity is that it is only necessary in extreme circumstances to avert a national disaster - in the present case the disaster of a chaotic no-deal brexit.

The GNU would have no other policies.

I would prefer Article 50 to be revoked as we can do that unilaterally, whereas an extension requires the agreement of our EU partners.

However if there is an extension, followed by another referendum, we must somehow safeguard our democracy from the same foriegn interference and other malign forces which influenced the result of the fraudulent referendum of 2016.

It would have to be clearly explained exactly what "leave" meant and not allow 57 varieties of lies and fairy tale promises to beguile the voters into thinking they could possibly be better off.

Surely Varian, you can see that your position on Brexit is on one of the extremes. Also, perhaps you may remember the number of times you have cross-questioned, and perhaps you could admit to criticising, those who, while they do not want to leave, are prepared to leave the EU politically if that means they can keep much of the the economic, scientific and educational structures, etc.,

To win any political argument you almost always have to take the middle with you. At the moment the Extreme Leavers are carrying enough of the Moderate Leavers with them for them to be able to suggest they have a majority. They can do this because they are against the separate Extreme Remainers and the separate Moderate Remainers.

Being right will not win this. Knowing what you believe to be right but understanding others could do. If played with care, while Johnson bulldozers his way forward, we could have the Extreme Remainers, Moderate Remainers and Moderate Leavers working together.

My position on brexit is not extreme. I simply believe we should remain in the EU, where we already benefit from a great deal, we are not in the Euro nor in Schengen and we have a rebate. We retain our voice, our vote and our veto and can work to improve the way the EU works for the mutual benefit of all 28 nations.

There are no shades of Remain - Remainers simply want to stay in the EU. There is nothing extreme about that. There is no division between what some chose to call "Extreme Remainers" and "Moderate Remainers". Some might be more vociferous than others or argue our case more strongly but we all want to remain- that's it.

Whereas we all recognise that there are many shades of Leave, from those who want a very "soft" brexit, remaining in the single market and customs union and retaining as many as possible of our present benefits whilst giving up our say in forming policies and regulations to those who advocate a "hard" brexit involving leaving with no deal and jumping off a cliff into the unknown. That has been the problem along.

Blimey, all the above questions to me in regard to Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party and I am not even a member of that party. It feels like I am still in the office where everyone seems to arrive at my desk with their problems. ??

Anyway, I hope no one will mind if I split the answers down into two or three posts. so, if I can take the growstuff and MaizieD queries of yesterday evening in regard to why the growing workplace attacks on those who have admitted in the past to being leave supporters is not being widely reported in the press.

For the answer to the above, you will have to reference the Health & Safety at work act 1973 and in that section three (Employers Duty of Care) and section eight (Employees Duty of care). The foregoing then links into the Equalities Act 2010 which encompasses the Fairness at Work Act 1996 and the Employment Rights act 1996.

Through the above acts can be seen the obligations placed on employers in regard to protecting employees from harassment and bullying which would include physical attacks by other employees. Also, under Employees duty of care, any worker who in the course of their employment duties endangers fellow workers or any other person in the vicinity of a workplace is subject to disciplinary procedure under gross misconduct.

Also within the above acts is legislation on how disciplinary procedures must be conducted by an employer against an employee. Minutes must be taken of all that is stated and the conclusions drawn and punishment(s) handed down (if any) at the termination of the hearings.

Obviously, in the above, an employer will be very keen to dismiss any employee who is found to have carried out a violent assault against a fellow employee. However, in the course of that action, an employer has to protect their business from claims by those who may have been assaulted in regard to not being adequately protected while attending his or her place of work (employers duty of care).

The minutes of disciplinary hearings cannot be released to anyone outside of a company due to the restrictions on organisations under the Data Protection Act 2018 and the European Union General Data Protection Regulations 2018.

In the above growstuff and Jura2, I hope you can see why employers and employees are unable to release details of workplace violence brought about by differences between employees in regard to Brexit. However, it is very much happening as my own company has advised several employers in recent months/weeks when such occurrences have taken place on their premises.

In that, employees dismissed for such workplace offences are just recorded by the employer as "dismissed from employment for reason of gross misconduct" and no one outside the company will be provided any other knowledge but the forgoing.

jura2 Quote [A question for Grandad ' has JC committed, unequivocably, to a second Ref and fully 100% back Remain'?

(I do think I know the answer- but would like to hear from you, thanks)] End Quote.

jura2, the Labour party policy on Brexit was laid out and adopted by the Labour Movement Delegate Conference of last September. That policy was drawn up by the grassroots activists who attended that weeklong event. In that they stated that to seek a General Election must be the first priory for the parliamentary Labour Party, but should that not prove possible to bring about, then the parliamentary party should seek to bring about a second referendum.

The Parliamentary Party has sought to bring about that General Election continuously over the last eleven months and in that has upheld the Conference policy. However, Jeremy Corbyn has stated in recent weeks that should the Labour Party win the General Election so predicted by many now, the Labour party would seek to gain better terms for the Brexit withdrawal agreement from the European Union.

In those negotiations, Britain leaving with no deal would be taken off the table, and at the conclusion of those talks whatever the outcome be (either good or bad) would be placed before the British Electorate.

So, it would be for that electorate to decide if Britain should leave the European Union on the terms set out in any free trade and withdrawal agreement drawn up, or remain within the European Union on Britain's present terms.

It is on one extreme Varian. Surely you can see that. You can argue in a very illiberal way that you are right and all other opinions are wrong. Simply saying There are no shades of Remain - Remainers simply want to stay in the EU comes across as extreme.

I voted remain but my view is considerably more nuanced than yours but you will not allow that. It is almost as if you want possession of "remain". People like me could be your allies but your view of the 'purity' of remains shuns any help you might get from others - unless they agree with your definition. I would call that pretty extreme and, as I say illiberal which would put many off the party too. If the Liberals are not careful they will find themselves in a lose/lose situation.

Your view and that of Extreme Brexiteers reminds me of all the wars fought over Protestantism and Catholicism. The two extremes currently fighting over the same county and what political stance is best and the old extremes fighting over the same God and how best to worship.

Where extremes continue to fight they always, it seems to me, end up destroying what they are fighting for. They are blind to any other point of view - Grandad's 'rabid', in fact.

GGMK3 When you say that your view as a remainer is more "nuanced" does that actually mean that you now think we should leave?

Grandad, I'm familiar with employers' H&S responsibilities. However, if what you're reporting is more than harassment and bullying, they have a duty to report actual physical assault to the police. I can't understand why the person being assaulted wouldn't report it anyway, unless they had somehow provoked it. Brexiters are not usually slow in coming forward to accuse other people of victimising them.

Most British people want to Remain in the EU

What arrogant and misleading tosh Varian

Kindly desist from posting end-of-the-world scenarios, mere personal 'forecasts' and your own opinions as truth.

Look at the 'Brexit map after the referendum. The Remain areas most definitely lost out to the areas voting to get out. The biggest party in the EU, after the recent elections, lest you forget, is the BREXIT PARTY.

The recent EU elections showed more voters supporting Remain Parties Day6.

If you dislike the fact that I still believe we we should Remain in the EU, are you saying that most folk believe in what you call "arrogant and misleading tosh"?

whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-remain-a-member-of-the-european-union-or-leave-the-european-union-asked-after-the-referendum/?removed

I would just like to point out that you do exactly what you are accusing Varian of doing Day 6. You are behaving as anyone might expect to extremists to behave. And where does that get you, the country, or those discussing it on GN?

Poll causes confusion after finding that 2% of Brexit Party members would now vote to remain!

www.indy100.com/article/brexit-party-members-survation-poll-remain-leave-eu-referendum-9059276

Varian I don't think my views have changed particularly since we voted.

So, GGMK3 your view is that we should Remain in the EU, exactly that same as my view. Where's the "nuance"?

Day 6- you accuse people of being rude, and you make comments like 'what arrogant and misleading tosh...'

how incredibly rude is that, Especially as she is clearly right.

Day6 : 'Look at the 'Brexit map after the referendum. '

yes, that was right after the Referendum. Things have changed considerbly since then. Many have now realised how fraudulent and mainipulated the vote was. But mainly, so many now realise, in those areas you mention - that it is those very areas that will suffer the most. The Cabinet have accepted that our industry and agriculture will be sacrificed - with all the jobs lost, and so much more. And the the NHS, instead of gettting more cash, is going to be sold cheap to Trump and co.

What of the above can't you get your head around?

Sir Oliver Letwin has ruled out supporting Jeremy Corbyn to become a caretaker Prime Minister in order to avoid no-deal Brexit.

The senior Tory MP said having Corbyn in charge would do more damage than leaving the EU without a deal would.

He did, however, back discussions across the Commons to prevent the UK leaving the bloc with no agreement.

www.cityam.com/tory-mp-oliver-letwin-rules-out-backing-jeremy-corbyn-to-be-caretaker-prime-minister/