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and it ties us to the EU indefinitely.
The Irish backstop could be the least of our worries.
May's WA must be rejected completely. It is an incredibly complicated document leaving hardly a subject not covered, and everything in it has been designed to be beneficial to the EU.
I doubt if any MP has read it from cover to cover. Nearly every paragraph is cross-referenced to a Treaty, Regulation or Directive, and each one has to be looked up, read and understood before moving on. It takes hours.
So says John Ashworth in his article This EU-written Withdrawal Agreement is toxic from start to finish
www.conservativewoman.co.uk/this-eu-written-withdrawal-agreement-is-toxic-from-start-to-finish/
It is a very revealing article, written by someone who has made an effort to link the words to the many treaties, acts and sub-paragraphs which determine the UK's role after a decidedly dodgy exit (or non-exit as it transpires) from the EU.
It is very worrying.
He concludes
During any transition period, we would not be classified as a ‘third country’, so although technically one could claim that we had left the EU, in practical terms, we *wouldn’t have done so – rather the opposite*
We would effectively be controlled by the EU to such a degree that we might just as well shut our Parliament down
We would finally become a ‘third country’ on 1 January 2023, as it is doubtful that the EU would consider an extension other than on the previous transition terms, which would essentially mean that we would still not have left the EU in any meaningful way
We would still be paying our ongoing fees, at full rate, to the EU. The EU would still control our fisheries and our armed forces and we would still be subject to the European Court of Justice, with our Parliament still essentially sidelined. No one in their right minds could want us to be in such a situation
We do not want Brexit in name only (BRINO) which is what the WA will give us, if our only request is the dropping of the backstop.
Boris, must be careful. May's WA is a non-starter. Farage, in waiting, understands that the WA has to be rejected - in full.
English Rose why do you claim there are now more leavers than there were at the time of the fraudulent referendum when all the evidence of opinion polls over the last two years show a decisive majority for remain?
varian - there is no definitive way to know how people would vote now. Many people who voted remain want to leave now. But I'm sure the opposite also applies. However, I'm certain leave would win if we had another vote.
However, what would be the point of another vote when the result of the first vote has been ignored? If we had the same result (or higher) you still wouldn't accept it!
Remainers will just not respect democracy.
Chestnut If you and others are certain that leave would win now because you chose to ignore the hundred or more opinion polls over the last two years which have shown that most UK voters want to Remain , then why would you oppose another vote?
How are you so sure Chestnut?
Every poll over the last couple of years has shown a shift towards more people wanting to remain - or at least a "soft Brexit" (whatever that's supposed to mean).
I'm as cynical about polls as anyone, but the number of them and the consistency would suggest they're probably right.
Of course, if you have evidence to make you so sure, I'm sure it would be interesting to read.
PS. How would you solve the problem of the Irish border because it's not just going to go away?
I'm a tad fed up of pointing out that democracy is more complicated than one single referendum, but it's so important that it's worth repeating.
More learned people than I have been writing books about the definition of democracy for hundreds of years.
The Referendum was not fraudulent varian. What a laugh all you lovely remainers are. You've been throwing that one up for over 3 years. It was a fair and square and well discussed and documented fight at the polling booths. Move on, do!
Opinion Polls are rubbish as we all know. It was an opinion poll which stated Remain would win the Referendum, LOL. I believe they got it backwards at the last GE too!
Have you actually asked anyone lately if they have changed their minds? Of course you may live in the bubble that is London, but I wouldn't ask you to say as where you live is private of course. I have a step granddaughter who changed her mind. A vicar I know personally. My butcher's father. The proprietor of our local Indian restaurant. 2 friends in London (YES) and 4 adults from the local Brownies group which my grandchildren attend.
We had a vote. There was nothing fraudulent about it. Even the bus , oh yes THAT bus, did not say £350, 000,000 a week was going into the NHS, it said it COULD go into the NHS....point taken I hope.
Bother me but you do bring up some aged arguments!
Democracy is fulfilling the wish of the People. Our wish was to Leave. Your wish is to have a vote as many times as you can until you get what you think you want. By doing so you are basically and fundamentally ANTI democratic.
Any 2nd Referendum would win with around 20 million or more this time around. So sometimes I wish we would just hold another one and get it out of the way and move on.
Soft Brexit is a deal where we get a better deal and no migrants than EU members get, thats exactly what Davies, JRM and Boris told us all 3 yrs ago and that’s what a majority believed and voted for.
Suckers, it’s our own politicians that fooled you and now you’re too stubborn to admit you’re wrong. Never believe a politician least of all an extreme right wing one, they are only feathering their own nest.
I think one thing we all agree on is that our country is in a mess with this Brexit fiasco. I have always believed in 'never be afraid to fight bullies'. After seeing the new 'Lion King' in 3D, absolutely amazing!!! I was actually moved to tears when that 'line' was said in the film. I think the Lion King should be shown in all schools regardless of a child's age. Heartbreaking to witness what so many people will do, instead of standing up to bullies!
Do you have actually have any evidence to back up your claim EnglishRose?
BTW Have you come up with a solution to the Irish border problem?
'I read your posts on this thread jura2 and struggle to reconcile your caring thoughts with some of your posts on another thread which has just reared its ugly head again. Which is the real jura2?'
totally fair- I am sticking by this post. Allowed, yes - but priority to those who are prepared to contribute themselves. As for Brexit if you vote for it and it causes shortages - again, totally fair to take responsibility and consequences of said choice. Nothing uncaring here.
David
Thank you for apology, it’s appreciated. I’ve only just got back to this thread, having just been watching a film, and relaxing.
You understand that I would feel upset as I know my mother voted leave, but I wouldn’t want her denied her medication. I don’t want anyone denied their medication.
jura your views on wanting to deny medication and treatment to anyone who voted Leave is appalling.....
Probably the worst views I’ve ever seen on GN.
Another problem with the WA is that the EU insists upon the level playing field which means the UK could not have different tax or VAT laws to the EU.
From what I have read the EU are furious with Frost as he has told them the WA must be changed as Boris wants a simple free trade agreement, no level playing field commitment so UK can choose their own taxations and is refusing to share the 5 eyes security with EU as they refuse to continue to share Europole with UK after Brexit. May was happy to continue to offer EU access to 5 eyes without getting reciprocal agreement about Europole.
The problem with the current WA is that everything is in favour of EU and UK will be powerless to leave without permission of EU.
Boris is trying to get changes made to WA and get a simple free trade agreement so as not to keep closely aligned with EU as this would impede UK ability to do free trade deals with other countries unless they also trade with EU. So not really making UK sovereign nation.
Data polls now show almost 50% of people just want a no deal Brexit by Oct 31st.
I understood, happy to be corrected, that Theresa May was offered a Canada++ deal fairly early on, but that she refused it. I don’t know if it’s true, but I have seen/heard it a number of times. I do know that it was May who refused keeping just Northern Ireland in the Custom Union, insisting it should be the whole of the UK, hence the backstop. I do understand why she did that, but I don’t understand refusal of Canada ++, if it’s correct.
I can recall that whilst 52% of those who voted, voted to leave that over 75% of parliament voted to remain. Hence the problem. Elected MP's are refusing to carry out the results of the referendum and leavers are becoming more and more angry and I would say now many just want to leave with no deal at all. If we have an election in November as Remainers blocked an October election all that will happen is that the UK will end up paying another £3 billion gross until end of Jan and when Boris wins in November he will get us out in Jan £3 billion poorer.
yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/09/03/voting-intention-con-35-lab-25-lib-dem-16-brex-11-
Despite parliament ganging up on Boris I see he is still well ahead in latest polls.
Newnanny, don't get too excited, those results ignore Scotland and NI and, bearing in mind that the election will not exclude those two, the probability is that the nation dealers are likely to win.
Newnanny, I’m not sure if tax rules are intended to be included in “level playing field” at present there are wide disparities in taxation policy and indeed enforcement across the EU. In the future I don’t see any nations wanting to accept a unified tax system or rate.
VAT is a single tax and unified but there is a wide variation of the rate applied, from 17% to 27% and each country has different lower rates for some commodities and exemptions.
The level playing field is in trade so that nobody can buy goods produced to lower standards, be that environmental, welfare, ethical or any other agreed policy undercutting producers within the EU. Because common trade standards are applied there is no need for border checks and tariffs making the whole process much more efficient.
It depends which pollster you look at, YouGov have the highest Tory advantage of 14% over Labour, most others have an advantage only of 3% . So in a GE the only certainty is a hung parliament, but which way.
EnglishRose Sat 07-Sep-19 18:11:18
I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said.
I gave up taking any notice of polls when they were all so completely wrong a few years ago. In fact I believe polls should be scrapped altogether as they can lead people to vote differently and that is not good.
Why have another referendum or people's vote if the results will only be ignored again? There are many thousands of people (of all ages) who voted in the referendum for the first time, who thought their vote would make a difference. Now sadly disillusioned, many will never vote again.
Just a postscript about that bus! It was 'Could', not 'Would', also it was to be enacted After we have Left the EU! That clearly hasn't happened yet, so in the event, how does anyone know that this won't happen?!!
Spot on Jabberwok! We haven't left the EU, yet they expect the money to be going into the NHS already! Just shows what nonsensical arguments the remain side come up with.
If you are in favour of leaving the EU with no Deal in October 2019 there is a petition that you should add your signature to on petition.parliament.uk. It currently has over 151,000 signatures, rising by the hour.
According to Dominic Cummings it was the promise on the bus that won it.
www.indy100.com/article/voted-brexit-nhs-promise-campaign-director-350million-battle-bus-voting-7568381
The petition to Revoke Article 50 got more than 6.1 million signatures so the no deal petition will have a job to beat that!
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