Looking at all the political threads, with their content so often one of complete and irreconcilable difference, it has occurred to me that we live in a very different country to the one we were brought up in.
Post war and for the subsequent decades, we lived in a society which largely accepted common goals such as attitude to extreme politics, the welfare state and its attitude to the unemployed and those physically or mentally disabled, or the attitude to people displaced by war or famine, etc.
We all had the same common goals. Where we differed was how we achieved these goals, which manifested in the political parties. Tories a largely centre right party, whose philosophical outlook was one of paternalism known as “one nation Toryism” and Labour, a centre left party whose philosophical outlook had been built and later expanded, on the recognition that the urban working class needed political representation, in order to represent its interests.
Both main parties largely accepted common goals, like those listed above, the difference was as I said how they could be achieved.
But now I would argue this system is rapidly breaking down, because we can no longer agree on what our common goals are.
Everything is in flux and under question.
This is resulting in huge divides, hate, and a parliament that reflects society at large which is so divided it can’t agree on the big issue of the day let alone carry on as a Parliament should with running the country. It seems paralysed.
I feel unsettled and dismayed at what is happening.
I can’t see a good outcome.
Interesting article in the Guardian David. The writer agrees with you:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/09/brexit-crisis-global-capitalism-britain-place-world
It's going to be more of a rollercoaster than Johnson's "few bumps in the road" before the UK finds its place in the world again … and you can bet anything that it's place won't be as powerful and influential as it is today.
Ok Lemon give me a line or two about the tangible gains that leaving the EU would achieve, not aspirations actual gains.
they do a very good job of it themselves.
Ok Lemon give me a line or two about the tangible gains that leaving the EU would achieve, not aspirations actual gains.
Good Luck with that.
The Guardian! I read what they publish, rarely do I agree
Telling us what you specifically don't agree with in the article might be a bit more 'enlightening', perhaps.
grapefruitpip- we have been asking again and again, for years now- and had very few answers, and none that stood up to scrutiny.
Quite often I have a bet with myself as to how soon a thread about a non-Brexit topic will degenerate into a leavers vs remainers spat. I thought this morning on this thread it might take about 32/33 posts. 
The closing paragraph perhaps has some reasoning
“Brexit is a necessary crisis, and has provided a long overdue audit of British realities. It exposes the nature of the economy, the new relations of capitalism to politics and the weakness of the state. It brings to light, in stunning clarity, Brexiters’ deluded political understanding of the UK’s place in the world. From a new understanding, a new politics of national improvement might come; without it we will remain stuck in the delusional, revivalist politics of a banana monarchy.”
Its the writer opinion I wouldn’t dismiss it
Spot on Gaunt47!
UG - think I underestimated actually! But then I'm hugely cynical
It was about the rich and powerful protecting what they'd got - much the same as 2019
The above sums it up as far as I am concerned. The big difference is that we now know what the rich and powerful are doing, we know that they avoid taxes, and some of us have realised that this is what Brexit is all about ( EU Tax directive coming in Jan 2020). The problem is that instead of demanding that these people, these companies pay their share, or demanding that our government makes them pay their share, we have allowed this country to become divided, to have broken into two camps, and as we do so, the fund managers, the tax dodgers, the Crispin Odeys, of this world, sit back and laugh as the mainly right wing press pumps out the propaganda about 'benefit cheats' and the undeserving poor, about illegal immigrants, all of which are believed by many, if yesterday's appalling thread about the state of the economy was anything to go by. So, as far as the thread goes, I don't think that we had the 'good old days' and many things have improved, but the nastiness, the division, as seen in the HoC, is a recent development, and it is, to my mind, a state that has been deliberately fostered.
Anniebach I think racism is even worse now than in the 60s. There is so much anti-Muslim (and migrant in general) feeling encouraged by the worst of the tabloids (especially that vile Katie Hopkins) and then when I see something like that which was posted yesterday, by the Leave.UK party, referring to Angela Merkel as 'a Kraut', I really despair that such a statement should even be thought, let alone shared on social media. I was shocked and horrified but mostly, very very sad.
Oh Paperbackwriter that Leave.eu post yesterday was truly disgusting! I reported it to FB when it appeared on my feed, as did many others, but it made me feel ill. Shameful.
No those who think we had the good old days really should think about the 20s/30s and view some of the old film of gaunt, half starved, poor and hungry people. I don't know what your 50's childhoods were like but unless you had a lot of money it was pretty tough going. However, you could tell people, if you wanted to, how you voted and most of the time just a simple discussion and perhaps a bit of persuasion took place to try and make you change your mind not the horrendous B.....t discussion that divides some families today. The HOC ave shown their true colours.
The difference was that back in the 60s we felt that gradually, one issue at a time, progress was being made towards something better. It was slow and not always steady.
Perhaps from a more 'Darwinian' perspective the root cause is population explosion. I read some years ago that our planet has enough resources to sustain 6 billion people. It appears we've already reached and even exceeded that number.
Climate change is exacerbating the population crisis by changing, (i.e. worsening) our weather patterns. Hurricanes, excessive heat and cold, droughts, flooding etc. threaten food supplies, habitats and other species. As advanced as our cyber Technology has become, it often stirs the pot further instead of providing solutions.
By nature man is territorial. Where resources become scarce, migrations increase and so does war. To varying degrees, turmoil is increasing all over the world and if we look at the bigger picture, we may be able to understand why.
willa years ago I read one f thosec think-tank predictions about the effects of climate change. One of the things they imagined was that the changes would contribute to unrest in places where life had become more difficult (or even impossible) and to mass migration from those areas to those that had not been so badly effected, followed by uprisings in the luckier areas against the influx of refugees, and the possibility of terrorist attacks by angry and/or desperate displaced persons and the breakout of civil wars.
Yes, Elegran! I think it's important to identify and address the where and why of so much unrest. It's unwise to allow tyranny to escalate beyond hope because the alternative is civil revolt, terrorism and even more migration.
As unworthy as it may seem politically, such is the task that mankind is now burdened with. What our world leaders have failed to see is that our collective survival as a species will depend on how well we can resolve these issues on a global scale. For that to happen, they all need to put politics aside, to get along and work together. Yes.....I know that's a very tall order!
Give me a list of tangible gains from staying in the EU?
I despair either way!
Staying in......We are part of something bigger than our own little island..
Security is better if we can share rescources with our neighbours
I am really disappointed I would have thought that at least one on Gransnet would be able to identify a few tangible benefits to leaving to EU. This is exactly the reaction I get face to face
We simply cannot run the U.K. purely on emotions, there has to be logic and reality, no wonder we cannot get any agreement and are in such a mess.
The present polarisation reminds me of other periods in history where an almost hysterical, tribal stand off between opposing views caused chaos and extreme measures:
-Protestants versus Catholics
-Royalists and Parliamentarians
These periods of opposing views saw rule by force, wars and individual state executions to name a few of the horrible consequences. The rise of a hard line Marxist in the present climate reveals quite how far things have gone.
I hear and read the most extremist views from people who, in all other respects, seem to have the same interests, concerns and lives as the neighbours with whom they disagree.
It is all very worrying and who knows where it will lead? The constant political agitation outside of the House of Commons, the increasingly violent protests by 'militant vegans' and the current mayhem and disruption caused by Extinction Rebellion are symptomatic of something very wrong. There seems to be a very small tail wagging a very big dog at the moment.
Well I am not expert in Politics or Europe but I have tried to come up with a couple of reasons.....over to you.
Well leave means all the foreigners have to leave innit? ( yes I have heard this one) , it’s £350m a week for the NHS innit? We survived the war etc ....
And I can't believe that people are still blaming Margaret Thatcher for the country's ills! I can well remember the terrible state the country was in when she came to power. I'd had a sixth form job in a greetings card shop and we had to have candles burning as the power was off. No TV, bodies unburied, rubbish piling up in the streets, thousands of man hours lost due to strikes, senior figures in unions and in government working for or with the Communists, rampant inflation, country on the verge of bankrupcy being refused money by the IMF. Good grief.
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