A broken country?

Crystal no not £350m a week that is the gross cost the Brexiteers forgot to deduct the money we get back, the real cost is about £170m.

I'm looking at it as a global, financial world war at this point-

The problem with Mrs Thatcher Lilyflower is that here in the North East we have always relied on heavy industry, shipbuilding and the mines . She decimated all of these during her time in power . People here have long memories .

Lilyflower, we're not talking about the rights and wrongs of the Thatcher government and preceding ones. The OP was about how the country appeared to have common goals and values for a few decades but the consensus seems to have broken down and we no longer have them. A change in the mood of the country. All some of us are saying is that the mood change can be traced back to the Thatcher era when she worked to 'roll back' the state and to privatise much of what had previously been run by the state, for the benefit of its citizens.

This was when the narrative of 'scroungers' on benefits, and 'wasteful' public services and 'greedy' workers began to take hold and the divide between the thinking of 'left' and 'right' became wider. IMO

I think there was some sense of collective responsibility and moving forward pre Thatcher. She promoted the cult of the individual.

Thatcher would never have been re-elected had it not been for ths Falklands War

Yes, that came in handy for her.

Those remainers who want answers as to why leavers think leaving a good idea are never going to change their minds, nor are they willing to be persuaded.
It's merely a ploy to shoot leavers down in flames.
We don't have to give you our reasons or justify our silence ?
It's enought to know what we know and if remainers want info they can look online.
If there is one thing we are not, it's daft.
You might be pretending to be sheep but we can smell wolf a mile away.

It was Margsret Thatcher's action in removing naval protection from the Falkland Islands that led to the invasion by Argentina.

Gabriella at least remainers are not Lemmings willing to jump of a cliff into the unknown, if they were on their own that would be no problem but they are taking about 50 million non leavers with them

Yes varian, she was a very devious 'woman'. It's such a shame that Brexit is dominating the political arena and blurring out the vital environmental challenges we face. We'll end up fighting over nothing and it will be 'too little, too late'.

It's merely a ploy

No it isn't. I have tried to put forward a couple of points and it's fair to ask those who support leave to do the same.

I don't think your crystal ball knows exactly what everybody will do.

grapefruitpip
Simply because you chose to put forward a couple of points , it doesn't mean that leavers have to follow suit.
Nothing is fair in love and war.

You really don't seem to have a clue Gabriella.

You think you're not daft.

"Those remainers who want answers as to why leavers think leaving a good idea are never going to change their minds, nor are they willing to be persuaded."

Why should they Gabriella? They are at least half the country and, as I am sure you know from your legal training, each MP is there to represent each and all their constituents. There is absolutely no logical (or legal) reason why there shouldn't be a confirmatory referendum on the actual deal or remain.

Of course you do not have to give us an answer about anything but surely it pricks your legal conscience to know that Leave.EU broke the law and Johnson overstepped it. Surely with the logical mind the law requires you would not expect the country to be healed by forcing a deal, or much worse a no deal through. The law would give someone the right to appeal if there was new evidence how could someone with your background take that right away from the people of this country?

Don't waste your fingers GracesGran. She doesn't have an answer. All the bluster and accusations are attempts to cover that up.

I have no conscience as far as leaving the EU goes.
I voted for the best outcome for me.
Everyone makes their own choice, that's why we have individual votes.
If you don't understand that well...I can't possibly type what I think on this forum as it wouldn't get past the moderators.
You have your own ideas and they ain't mine, not by a long chalk.
We are not in a court of law and I do not have to read or hear the mutterings with a lawyers eyes.
I'm retired and can hold whatever views I like as I'm not being paid.
It's the job of police to uphold the law and lawyers to argue in favour of their clients whether one believes or not, in their innocence or guilt.
Get a life.

Paddyann, you support Independence thats fine. I just wonder how Scotland will support itself. Oil? Which is now down the toilet. A Union that who didn't want, not sure I understand this. I also do not understand why we don't want to be ruled by Westminster, but seem to be eternally happy to be run by Juncker, Merkel, Macron and heaven knows who in the EU. What happens when we lose the Barnett Formula? Are Scottish Govt going to fill that gap? What are we going to use for currency? When on holiday and if we need help which Embassies are going to help us? It wont be the British Embassy or the Foreign Office as we will no longer be British? If we get Scottish Independence and it all goes wrong, who will Scottish Govt blame then? They won't have Westminster to blame. We have two hospitals that have been a complete and utter disaster. One in Glasgow, brand new that has had nothing but problems and is going to cost a fortune in repair bills. The Sick Children's Hospital, which is lying empty and costing us, the Scottish people approximately £1 million a week, while it sits there doing nothing and goodness knows when it will be open. Quite frankly every health minister we have had has been rubbish. Police Scotland has had nothing but cuts. Mental Health services are in crisis. Waiting lists for treatment are months long. We got 'baby boxes' that were a complete waste of money, when to my mind the money could have been put to better use. I don't know anyone whose new baby has even slept in one of these things. Paddyann, you support Independence thats ok. However, if we ever gain Independence, us Scots better be prepared to dig deeply into our pockets to pay for what we need to fund the country. I really dont think we have the money. Before the Indyref, I went online and read a report by the Institute for Fiscal Studies. It seemed to suggest we wouldn't have the money either. So if you have an idea Paddyann, how we are going to fund ourselves, perhaps you could tell me.

I think there were a lot things that were worse prior to and during the 50's and 60's:

The sort of racism that the vast majority of people would now find appalling, eg the 1964 election in which the slogan *If you want a nigger for a neighbour, vote Labour", helped the Conservatives win Smethwick.

Unmarried mothers being a source of disgust and shame, often hidden away in mother and baby homes and forced, generally for social and economic reasons, to give up their children to adoption.

Criminalisation of homosexuality and widespread prejudice.

Discrimination against women in many spheres of public life, including employment.

Very limited access to contraception and abortion, resulting in deaths from backstreet abortions.

Capital and corporal punishment.

I am not sure that there were "common goals" but I think there was more conformity and less questioning of certain people, professions and institutions that were seen by many to be the mainstay of civilised society and so beyond criticism - eg the monarchy, the judiciary, the professions, etc, etc.

To some extent, I think the acceptance of these common values and beliefs led to the general public being more compliant and thus there being a more cohesive society. But it could be argued that advances only come about when people become less accepting of the status quo and less subject to "group think" and start to demand changes.

I think there have been huge advances, particularly in social attitudes. But the enormous emphasis on growth and consumerism, with the acquisition of wealth and celebrity being seen as a primary goal for many adults and children, does not really lend itself to "common goals" in terms of societal, rather than individual goals.

I don't think there was ever a perfect time, but big improvements were made in the late 60's and 70's, which still continue but which are constantly challenged by "the unacceptable face of capitalism" which Heath referred to. I think the austerity imposed upon the country has created feelings of resentment and distrust and has caused division and feelings of hopelessness. In such a situation neither "common goals" nor "common values" are, I believe, likely to thrive.

I have come late to this thread, but have found it very interesting. I have read all the posts and found many very thoughtful and considered, including the OP.

However, I have found no answers and certainly have none to offer.

I am not sure that we have ever had common goals as such. The only common goal I can think of in my lifetime is a collective aspiration towards a more egalitarian and inclusive society in which oppressed members of society such as women, minority groups and the poor are given equal rights to education, employment opportunities, healthcare etc. With this came greater tolerance and understanding rather than suspicion and a sense of 'otherness'.

Maybe we also shared common values: accepted standards of behaviour and attitudes to authority, respect for the law, respect for different religious, political etc. beliefs.

However, as the OP observes, all this now seems to be breaking down.
The reasons for this are undoubtedly very complex and better minds than mine (which is also very tired at the moment!) in the media have wrestled with them. It would be easy to blame B----t, but I think that this is a manifestation of the problem rather than a cause. Whatever the cause is, I think that the flames have been fuelled and fanned by the tabloid press and the accessibility, large audience and anonymity of social media.

Good post Eloethan. I hadn't read yours when I posted mine. You make a good point on compliance: conformity and non-questioning rather than common goals or values.

Grandad I think there appeared to be more of a sense of decency in those days.

However, I think that the decency was just on the surface and the public did not get to hear about much of what went on until the Profumo Affair opened our eyes to what simmered beneath the surface of public life.

It may just be that I heard nothing as I was a child in the 50s and early 60s, but certainly my ears were not shielded from politics in our home.

I always felt secure here, but now I don't. I thought we were democratic, but now we are not. To vote and have your say, knowing that the rule of law would be upheld is no more. , the result of the referendum have not been upheld and to me that's scary, there are politicians and the public with their own agenda, they have interests for going against democracy and I just wish a thorough investigation would go into their personal interest in staying at all costa whilst the country is in chaos. I really think it's to bring this country down. Sorry for my grandchildren, how can they feel safe here now. Whatever happens now it's too late we are divided, one day the people who decided that democracy doesn't matter will realise their mistake, the damage has been too great, I am old and the problem wont affect me, the real victims for all all this selfishness will be sent I am gone, for the young, what has been sacrificed for them to bear the consequences of.

Peonyrose, I understand your frustration but:
To vote and have your say, knowing that the rule of law would be upheld is no more. , the result of the referendum have not been upheld and to me that's scary,

As has been reminded many times on the political threads, the referendum was only advisory, so no law has been broken in not yet delivering Brexit. The person who gave us this referendum (David Cameron) and the promise to uphold the result, upped stumps and cleared off as soon as the result was announced, so, in effect, failed to deliver on his promise. He, and subsequent leaders, may have behaved unethically, but not unlawfully.

I believe that Parliament has worked hard to try to get us out of the mess which the poorly conceived and organised referendum has got us into. Everyone, not just Leavers and not just Remainers, are the losers here. No one, but no one is actually getting what they thought they voted for.

But all this is just an aside in response to your post, Peonyrose as this thread is about so much more than just Brexit. As I implied in my earlier post, Brexit is a symptom, not the disease.

So, back to the topic.....