For brexiters only please.

It seems remainers now have another thread set up for them. Thats OK. Since they now have this one as well, they have two exclusive threads for themselves. Enjoy. I dont think any leavers will be back here now and I am gone too.

I do respect the remainers rights and I wont be trying to elbow in on your exclusive thread.

Mon 21-Oct-19 20:08:55

Very confrontational talk.

Yes, Joelsnan. As I said "To use the language favoured by those who, just as the OP and the Tories use it to set about excluding half the country and denying free speech and parliament's rights, ... I am glad you appreciate that the language of leave voters has descended to confrontation.

BTW, Do you know any other ‘civilised’ country where:
In a democratic referendum the largest % of actual voters are prevented from having the result of the referendum enacted by the losers?

I know of countries where a government will not go ahead with the result of a referendum if, when it has been explored, it is obviously detrimental to the country. Do you? In fact, do you know anything about how referendums are carried out in other countries?

Mon 21-Oct-19 20:01:00

BTW, do you consider yourself Middle, Upper class or what?

What an exceedingly odd question. However, although I imagine many would consider it ill-mannered to pry, you asked so I will answer.

Social class, as we used to know it (apparently) is only defined in the mind of those checking where they and others fit in; I don't think it exists as it once did. I was brought up to believe I could talk to anyone be they dustman or Duke (in more unconsciously sexist days) because we are all equals. I still believe that and as a result, see myself as equal to anyone and classless.

GracesGranMK3
Thank you for your response.
It is interesting how there are those so entrenched in their views that now ears and eyes are closed on both sides, both claim name calling as justification for their intransigence.

Re referendums: Yes, I am very aware of how referendums are manipulated to achieve outcomes desired and are often re-run until those who shout loudest achieve their goals. Recently Eire, France and the Netherlands. The Brexit referendum was sold as a once in a lifetime decision of leave or remain. Not hard or soft. Everyone had a level of understanding on what EU membership meant to them on BOTH sides, some more informed, some less so. I feel sorry for those who voted remain who state that we know more now than in 2016. Maybe they should not have been so parochial in their understanding in 2016, adopting the I’m alright jack attitude without examining the issues related to EU membership affecting the working classes, not just in the UK but throughout Europe as reinforced by the recent Gilet Jaune demonstrations.

I asked the question about class because it seems apparent that a large majority on this site who are vehement remainers are/were not of the blue collar category. Most appear to have had jobs in education or similar and now have good pensions often with second homes in Europe. There concern is more free travel to their villas rather than free travellers coming to work in the low pay jobs in the leave constituencies. They come because the low pay here is still better than their pay at home.
They worry about their children not being able to live and work in Europe. How many kids speak 27 European languages fluently enough to be able to work anywhere in Europe. What about the low academic kids, do we leave them to fight for low paid warehouse jobs with more educated from Europe who can make more money here?
I find it quite distressing how so many people are only concerned with ‘me and mine’ whilst living their comfortable existence. I think of ‘let them eat cake’.

It is interesting how there are those so entrenched in their views that now ears and eyes are closed on both sides, both claim name calling as justification for their intransigence.

I'm afraid I think that is rubbish.

I see a thread for remainers only has been started so hopefully this one can be left for us leavers.

Yes, I am very aware of how referendums are manipulated to achieve outcomes desired and are often re-run until those who shout loudest achieve their goals.

You are very happy to turn peoples words on their heads, aren't you? It is such a stupid thing to do as most people remember what they said. Governments with more direct democracy allow for more information coming to light, a change in mood, etc. I most certainly did not say that these countries "manipulate" referendums. The citizens know and understand how their democracy works which, it has become very apparent, is more than can be said for many of our citizens. I was not thinking about Eire, France or the Netherlands. Perhaps you can explain the level of direct democracy in these countries and how it works and please stop twisting my words - it is a form of lying.

Most appear to have had jobs in education or similar and now have good pensions often with second homes in Europe. There concern is more free travel to their villas rather than free travellers coming to work in the low pay jobs in the leave constituencies. They come because the low pay here is still better than their pay at home.

Rubbish yet again. If that is how you see me so be it. I am not going to explain to you my life or my lifestyle.

A new sparkly thread for Remainers has been set up?
We must all feel free to comment on it of course.....

aprilrose, I feel your pain and I'm totally with you. I also had a little celebration planned on 31st. Sadly, though, I now think we will never leave the EU - Parliament are not going to allow it - sanctimonious twits that they are.

I wish I were a medieval Queen and could utter those magic words "Off with his head". First in the queue would be John Bercow (power-crazed, smug, reprehensible idiot). Next in line would be all the MPs who are paid to represent their constituents and haven't. All those whose majority of constituents voted Leave. They don't deserve their positions. Traitors and betrayers, the lot of them. Theresa May said it much more eloquently in her speech on Saturday. That we've been subjected to the biggest con-trick in history.

I cheer myself up with this -

AlltheLs ''Next in line would be all the MPs who are paid to represent their constituents and haven't. All those whose majority of constituents voted Leave.''

So you believe that MPs should scrutinise and analyse the real effects and consequences of No Deal (remember we were all promised a great deal, the best deal, the easiest and quickest deal, that we held all the cards ...) - come to the conclusion they would be disastrous on their constituents - and just be quiet about it- and let it all happen without asking said Constituents if it is really what they want- now they know???

You have a very different view of our Sovereign British Parliamentary Democracy, for sure.

Love it AllTheLs.

AllTheLs haha, yes, where’s Guy Fawkes when you need him??

Read this

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/5-reasons-not-peoples-vote-20665385

Tried to Hooty ( out of curiosity) but couldn't access it.

Thank you for confirming my observations GracesGranMK3 just the response I expected.

Works fine when I tried it.

You don't need 27 languages to work in EU countries. Just saying.

PS. I have a pension (not a very good one) but no second home in Europe. I don't even own my own home in the UK and my rent swallows up all my pension (and more). I still voted to remain.

hooty
Yes, it works,
I do wish people would stop calling this a Peoples vote. The actual Peoples vote was held in 2016. The referendum that is being called for now is and should be called the Remainers vote. Or, indeed the poor losers vote.

Will remainers only be allowed to vote? Baffled!

Next in line would be all the MPs who are paid to represent their constituents and haven't. All those whose majority of constituents voted Leave.

AllTheLs so you'd agree that any MP whose constituents voted a majority for remain can not vote for leave in any form? I've asked this question before but nobody, leaver or remainer, has answered.

growstuff
How could the ordinary Brit secure employment in an EU country without the ability to communicate?
I agree someone with a degree in a specific language may get work, but the lower academic, or low skilled would be very unlikely to benefit from free movement to secure employment. The wages for these jobs are lower in EU anyway, that’s why folk come here.

Thank you, April Rose. You have lifted my spirits, which is very hard at this difficult time. I just saw the thread as what it was intended to be and many posts were reassuring.

growstuff
Will remainers only be allowed to vote? Baffled

It’s only remainers that want the referendum. The people who comprise the largest section of the ‘actual’ peoples vote just want the outcome to be enacted. That’s how democracy works.

janipat. The answer to your question is yes.

“By constituency 406, Leave 242 Remain”