For Remainers Only

I’m obviously not welcome on the “Brexiters only” thread, so I thought I’d reply on here.

A certain poster claimed “Before joining the EEC we were known as the poor man of Europe”

Another poster, with pro-Brexit views, replied, “- Really? Where is your proof of this?”

Actually, there’s loads of “proof” (let Google be your friend), but here are three examples of Britain being dubbed the “sick man of Europe”:

“Throughout the late 1960s and 1970s, the United Kingdom was frequently called the "sick man of Europe", first by foreign commentators, and later at home by critics of the third Wilson/Callaghan ministry, because of industrial strife and poor economic performance compared to other European countries.” (Wiki)

“IN THE 1970s, Britain was dubbed “the sick man of Europe”, a role previously played by the Ottoman empire in the late 19th century. A poor growth record since the second world war combined with terrible industrial relations to make many ask the question “Is Britain governable?”.
The reason Britain joined what was then the EEC in 1973 (at the third attempt) was, in large part, a desperate attempt to find a way of forcing the country to become more competitive. Whether Europe was the key factor, or whether it was Margaret Thatcher’s reforms, by the mid-1990s, the trick seemed to have worked. In particular, London, which lost a quarter of its population between 1939 and the early 1990s, became a global, self-confident city, attracting expats from all over the world. There was a point, a decade ago, when London started to talk of overtaking New York as the global financial centre.”
(Economist, Jul 19th 2017)

“Britain joined what was then the European Economic Community in 1973 as the sick man of Europe. By the late 1960s, France, West Germany and Italy — the three founder members closest in size to the UK — produced more per person than it did and the gap grew larger every year. Between 1958, when the EEC was set up, and Britain’s entry in 1973, gross domestic product per head rose 95 per cent in these three countries compared with only 50 per cent in Britain. After becoming an EEC member, Britain slowly began to catch up. Gross domestic product per person has grown faster than Italy, Germany and France in the more than 40 years since. By 2013, Britain became more prosperous than the average of the three other large European economies for the first time since 1965.”
FT March 31 2017

There are another 14 bullet points of this farcical stuff on the Brexiters' thread. If I have time today, I'll factckeck them all. Have a nice day!

And here's a graph showing the growth in UK growth per capita. Being in the EU has been a good time for the UK's economy.

Ooops! Typo "factcheck"

To any poster who thinks that I should:

a) prefer to live elsewhere
b) check my facts.

Firstly, I was born in the UK - in England, to be precise - and I have no intention of moving anywhere else. I wouldn't be able to after Brexit anyway. One silly poster seems to miss the point that I'm quite happy to live here and don't want numbskulls messing about with the country where I live.

Secondly, I do usually check my facts, which is something people supporting Brexit rarely seem to do.

Would right and centre government during eighties, nineties and noughties have anything to do with that recovery?

Growstuff - exactly I think people don't want to remember what it was like before we joined the EU. Equally Johnson and co are now looking to open up trade with the US so that they can get the UK to accept lower standard food including chlorinated chicken, steroid pumped beef and get their hands on the NHS. Why people can't see what's going on? Brexit is about big bucks for the big boys.

This was from a blog this morning. It resonated with me so I thought I would share it with other remain voters.

It’s clear that the government wants to pursue radical de-regulation on everything from worker to environmental, social and financial protections. Their goal is Singapore-on-Thames where they can show contempt for international norms and standards on every imaginable issue, and depart from previously hallowed ground on matters such as the NHS. Their desired outcome is a country with a more powerful and relatively richer elite, and they are indifferent as to whether that reduces the income of all else in the country. They, at least, can be understood.

But why do so many still support Leave when it is so apparent that this agenda is so harmful to them? And I mean harmful in the sense of very obviously imposing restrictions on their well-being? What is the trade off? Where is the gain? What advantage does the pursuit of English nationalism provide that makes it worthwhile having despite it making most worse off within the country, and by international comparison?

I know I am told, time and again, that I must seek to understand the Leaver. And I have tried. And no Leaver I have met has ever come close to being able to answer the simple question ‘how will your life be better by leaving given that you know there are costs from doing so?’ The best most do is deny the cost. But they still can’t explain the gain.

I could not help those who asked me this question last week.

It related to a visit made to Europe last week by the poster but I have to admit I don't know the answer either.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/10/27/can-anyone-outside-the-tory-elite-explain-what-they-want-from-brexit/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+org%2FlWWh+%28Tax+Research+UK+2%29

Not the point Pantglas. A poster implied that it was a lie that the UK was called "the sick man of Europe". I was showing that it was true. I'm busy today but I'm going to dissect all the silliness in that post.

What really gets up my nose (and why I'm going to take every single one of those claims apart) is that I object to being called names on a "closed" thread and that the claims made by people who care about their country (and want tp stay in the EU for that reason) are farcical.

Of course we were the sick man of Europe during the sixties and seventies Growstuff - they were mostly centre and successful and couldn’t understand how we were held over a barrel by the left and the unions.

Growstuff Many thanks for your response to the sick man of Europe - my mistake for substituting poor for sick. I had thought everybody in Gransnet, being of a certain age, would have heard tht phrase.

To be honest I didn't expect the response that I received on the other thread. Leavers are always complaining about the facts and links that Remainers include in their posts and so I just listed some bullet points.

I have to conclude that many of them just can't remember what it was like before we joined the EEC.

Growstuff There is an interesting opinion piece in the Guardian today by Richard Seymour about the right's use of trolling and how it's designed to make the rest of us react.

IMO if you respond to the Leavers on the other thread you'll just be wasting your time. They'll probably ignore you or come out with more lies.

Pantglas

The UK had Conservative governments from 1951-1964 and 1970-1974. The reason the country was the "sick man of Europe" was because it had antiquated infrastructure and management practices and still believed that it could rule an Empire. It thought it could carry on in the way it had between the world wars.

In any case, I posted what I did because a poster on another thread ridiculed Dinahmo for calling the UK the "sick man of Europe" and obviously had no idea of the description - not because I intended to get into a discussion about what actually caused it.

growstuff get off your high horse - this is a copy of that particular part of Dinahmo's post, and my reply:
"Dinahmo
1. Before joining the EEC we were known as the poor man of Europe
- Really? Where is your proof of this?"
I'm asking Dinahmo where her proof is. Leavers are constantly being asked for proof, evidence and links on these threads, and yet it's not OK for me to do the same? Yes, it's farcical! Happy dissecting - how sad.

growstuff posted the proof of her statement earlier on in this thread.

It is such common knowledge to my generation, Opal, that you're either considerably younger than us children of the 50s or you are unaware of our history...

Here are some search results for you:

duckduckgo.com/?q=sick+man+of+europe%2C+britain&t=chromentp&ia=web

Opal I responded to comments from various people on the other thread that Remainers never give their reasons for staying in the EU. So I did. Re the sick man of Europe - I have admitted to typing poor instead of sick. Not an enormous sin I would have thought.

Had I chosen to, I could have chosen similar sources to Growstuff and quoted them at length. I could have done the same for every reason I listed. But I chose not to. Partly because it would have taken me ages to type and partly because it wouldn't have been read.

I have in the past quoted at length from source material and am aware that my posts haven't been read and inwardly digested because the same silly comments come up again and again. A good example of this is the audit of the EU accounts.

A good example of this is the audit of the EU accounts.

You're not the only one who's posted on that one, Dinahmo

I don't think anything ever actually gets through the anti-fact shield. It's happened to all of us. Refute an assertion, any of them, and blow me, it pops up again a few posts later. Like they're reading from a script and daren't deviate...

So now I'm told to get off my high horse for posting facts!

That's after facts are described as "farcical".

Apparently people who voted to remain are "vile and aggressive"!

All this from people who turn into snowflakes when people won't be intimidated by their lies.

Posting facts growstuff ; how very dare you !!!

'Leavers' won. Suck it up!

What we know to be true

I appreciate that a left winger will not want to get into a discussion on what caused uk to be called the sick man of Europe but to attribute the success in the eighties, nineties and noughties purely to the EU is disingenuous. The move to right and centre policies had a massive effect, in my opinion.

You're welcome to start a thread about the decades since the 60s, Pantglas. I'm sure you'd find some takers. It's just that we're busy with other things on this one.

It is no good hoping that leavers will read, digest and accept facts because

Brexit has become a cult.

It is quite bizarre

What "left winger" would that be Pantglas2?