Institutional racism in the police?

To widen the discussion perhaps some would like to read this article about the Met
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/24/bame-ex-officer-claims-racism-forced-her-out-met-police

cba with you trisher.

I can’t help wondering what impression of Gransnet any new members would form, from reading this thread.

Are there any? Has it put you off?

I understand what you are saying tickingbird. However, I don't think the fact that white people on occasion experience injustice and unfairness, bears any relevance to whether or not the police behaved differently in this case because of skin colour. We just don't know.

I can see why the family might potentially feel that is the case though within their context of their possible experiences. Again we don't know.

If it had been two white girls I think there might well have been criticisms of the police response, without linking those actions to racism.

I do hope that the crime is solved for the sake of their family. I also would hate the actions of 2 officers to be used as "proof" of anything other than 2 officers did the wrong thing!!"

QED Chewbacca

I also would hate the actions of 2 officers to be used as "proof" of anything other than 2 officers did the wrong thing!!"

Exactly so Madgran.

Yes, a good summing up of the case Iam64 ??

The problem is that the taking of the photographs is one issue and that concerns only the 2 officers, but the sharing of the photographs involves other people and if any of those are police officers who have not reported the crime they are complicit and need to be disciplined. But even the existance of a Whatapp group that they could share such pictures on is indicative of a sub-culture that stinks to high heaven.

Be that sub-culture racist, necrophiliac or some other aberration.

Jennifer Eccles I am relatively new to Gransnet and hope to be a regular contributor. I have read many posts to gauge the type of site this is, and in a short time was able to recognise those aggressive contributors who regularly appear. TBH I rarely read their original posts, because they will be highlighted later by those who disagree. I think that the unpleasantness tends to distract from the point. Having said that I do enjoy the topics. Incidentally I am no fragile plant, quite happy to state my opinion. I do hope it does not descend to the level of Mumsnet, but for the time being I’ll stick with it.

Iam64 To some degree, I agree with you. Nobody has expressed anything but repugnance for the officers who took these selfies. Really, though, you would have to be part of something akin to the Ku Klux Klan not to be disgusted by what happened following the womens' deaths.

It was said that the officers' actions were typical of the current obsession with taking selfies. My feeling is that the vast majority of people would not behave in this way, and the implication that the officers' actions were in some way part of modern culture is, in my opinion, outrageous.

We can't know that the photographs were shared with other police officers. I am sure those two rotten apples have mates who are not in the police.

I wonder at the motives of people who make sweeping assumptions about the police.

Having known many police officers, I know they would feel disgusted and betrayed by the two who behaved reprehensibly.

I have daughters and granddaughters and my heart goes out to the mother of those poor girls.

Presumably somebody who received these photos reported them - because how else did they come to light? However, the fact that the police officers thought some of their colleagues might appreciate seeing them is worrying, isn't it?

I don't think anyone is suggesting all police officers are racist but this sort of incident will inevitably raise concerns.

No Eloethan nobody is suggesting all police officers are
Racist.....that would be outrageous in itself given how many police officers there are in the UK.
Nobody know who they sent the photos to, it could be non police friends we just don’t know.
Without modern culture and the craze for selfies or for snapping away at any situation with a phone this wouldn’t
Have happened, whether you think that assertion is outrageous or not.

I wonder if part of the investigation will be to track down exactly who they shared the photos with and then make sure that every last copy is destroyed forever? And deal with any one of those who had a copy of it if they then forwarded it on to others.

I sincerely hope the main priority of the police is to find and convict the person/people who took the lives of those poor women. What a horrific attack!

I am sure the matter of the two who took selfies will be sorted and I hope they are convicted too.

Hello Lexisgranny
Yes it’s easy to quickly identify the aggressive posters who challenge anyone and anything but that mostly happens on the Politics threads where differing opinions inevitably clash!

This one though I thought had become quite unpleasant with all the accusations of racism, which led to my question.

There is also a lot of kindness and support on many threads, and I would say the good outweighs the bad !

if any of those are police officers who have not reported the crime they are complicit and need to be disciplined

I agree

There was a recent case when a black police officer was sacked because she deleted rather than reported an inappropriate image her sister sent her. the sister had expected police action and hadn't realised that by forwarding the image she, herself was not only committing an offence but making her sister complicit. A police investigation took place when another individual who also received the image shared the outrage of the person who forwarded it but also, decided to inform the Police. The police action resulted in the sacking of a formerly respected and valued BAME officer and prosecution of the family member who shared the image
That must reassure some who accuse the Met of institutional racism. Chewbacca, you expressed hope the police investigation would track all involved, I think this recent case confirms it will.

trisher, I don't want to get into a row about this dreadful case. I have worked closely with the police over 40 years in safeguarding. I was involved in training police officers over a 10 year period. I wonder if you have extensive, or much, experience of working with the police. I have. I'm left with very few negative memories. My overall experience was of excellent officers, dedicated to public service and with a genuine desire to help others.
No one will dispute there are some racist officers. I challenge any large public body with no members of staff who hold views most of us would find abhorrent to step forward.

Iam64 I just fail to understand why people will not even admit the possibility of instutionalised racism, particularly in the Met. Of course I'm not as experienced in working with police officers as you are, but I would suggest that there are a great many people about who are well able to make all the right noises when they need to, but equally able to share views that would be considered unacceptable with others. I wouldn't expect anyone to come up to me and just make racist comments.
I can only go by people who have worked in the Met or with them
Leroy Logan
Leroy Logan, 62, is a former Met officer and ex-chairman of the National Black Police Association.
Twenty years after Macpherson, he says the force remains institutionally racist.
Logan says improvements were made post-Macpherson, such as hate crimes now being identified, but adds: "We still don't have the promotion of equality and justice in the organisation
"Black officers are disproportionately subjected to discipline compared to their white counterparts
"You still see black staff hugging the lower ranks and they aren't breaking through to the upper levels of the organisation."
He adds: "We still have disproportionality in stop and search, where a black person is five times more likely to be stopped by police than their white counterparts.
"They are 20 times more likely to be stopped under section 60 roadblocks and you are more likely to be Tasered if you are black.
"So even if this is unconscious bias, the fact the police force know these figures but have not decided to question why this is happening and haven't addressed it - it is institutionally racist."
I don't claim to have any expertise only awareness of what others have said

trisher I agree with you and have read Leroy Logan's views.

So even if this is unconscious bias, the fact the police force know these figures but have not decided to question why this is happening and haven't addressed it - it is institutionally racist."

That is a perfect description of an example of how an organisation can be institutionally racist whilst its services are being delivered by many individual, dedicated people. Saying an organisation is institutionally racist is NOT saying that everyone who works in the organisation is a racist.

That misunderstanding is I think the cause of problems quite often in discussions on race and racism.

How much either applied in the sad case of the 2 women who were murdered, we just don't know.

as to the hideous photos, the news report state they were shared with a group including members of the public.
that word, including, suggests that other were not members of the public; so presumably, in the context, were police.
as to the location of the party, it is quite near to the address of the older sister, Bibaa, whose birthday it was.
she was a senior social worker in children's services, in a home counties area. not london.
where she lived and where the party took place is 71% non white british.
her sister, an artist and photographer, lived a little further away, in the next borough.

trisher - of course I agree that people are well able to keep their racist views quiet, especially on training courses. That's much less likely to happen when co working in the community, or going out to support other colleagues involved in mental health or safeguarding issues. Some joint investigations run over months. You get to know people during that kind of work.
I'm not attempting to deny racism, misogyny in the police but constant attacks on the integrity of an entire work force is not likely to lead that work force to be able to be open, more likely to be defensive and in denial.

Thanks Madgran77 I sometimes feel as if I have fallen down a rabbit hole on GN. I read the views of people like Leroy Logan and listen to what they have to say then come on GN where the assertations that this can't be happening are so many and so vocal that I have to go back and read the articles again to reassure myself. I really don't understand why people are reluctant to investigate or listen to those with more experience than themselves but insist institutionalised racism can't possibly exist.
Iam64 John Stuart Mill, said in 1867: “Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”

i know the area where the crime happened, and someone i know lives just a few yards from the fields.
it was not the entrance used by the party people.
but is literally the end of her road. just a few houses away.
i would have thought that police would do house-to-house enquiries. but no. i sent her articles about it, and that was the most information she had. it was over a week after discovery that the police said to look out for a person with an injury acquired since saturday 6th june.