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A group has been created with the aim of removing the government

(360 Posts)
Grany Fri 21-Aug-20 08:54:39

This government is useless in everything they are doing or not doing. Demonstrations have not been effective. So an online group has been created which it hopes can spread gain millions of people with aim of then saying look we want to remove this useless government.

So what do GNetters think could this work?

Colin Blakemore

I am creating A group of like minded individuals to remove the government

remove-the-tory-government.mn.co/posts/7581420?utm_source=manual&fbclid=IwAR2Nii9jMWIx_P9tkGczfw0xXmVWo34lUDnUwoJ1IZiFSDanxeXmX1XyV5k

growstuff Sun 23-Aug-20 12:38:51

Callistemon

If anyone thinks a republic is preferable to a benign monarchical system only has to think one word: Cummings.

I shudder at the thought.

I don't think a republic is preferable, but it's not a black and white situation.

Democracy in the UK has always been complex - evolutionary rather than revolutionary - with no written constituion, as countries such as Germany, France and the US have.

Many of the principles on which most people's understanding of democracy are based, are being undermined under our noses.

flixukay Sun 23-Aug-20 12:42:26

Tbh this sounds like a waste of time and money.
You'd be better off joining an Oppostion Party and working hard in your local constituency to inform people that there are better options out there and persuade them to vote for them in the next election in May 2024.
The government we have at present under Boris Johnson is undoubtedly dreadful, but attempting to remove them by some amateur coup is only going to get you laughed at and achieve nothing.

Elegran Sun 23-Aug-20 12:50:09

History has many examples of advisors who used monarchs and leaders as puppets. If they have a stronger personality than the nominal ruler, they can execute a lot of "power behind the throne"

Hereditary direct monarchs varied greatly in their ability or desire to actually rule their kingdoms. Some "advisors" to royalty were executed for treason, some caused kings to be dethroned and whole dynasties to fall. Rasputin contributed to the execution of the whole imperial family. Many were summarily dismissed when their "master" was succeeded on the throne by someone with ideas of his/her own and the strength to impose them.

If Johnson loses his position as PM, his successor will probaly get rid of Cummings too. The danger is that he could have caused irreversable damage to the democratic system and the infrastructure of the UK, without there being any equivalent structure to replace them.

growstuff Sun 23-Aug-20 12:52:28

Not if the successor is Gove. Cummings and Gove go way back.

Elegran Sun 23-Aug-20 12:54:28

Fryingpans and fire come into mind.

growstuff Sun 23-Aug-20 12:55:54

The other contender is Sunak, but I doubt if he has the political experience to put his foot down and establish himself.

Gove is a wily political operator.

growstuff Sun 23-Aug-20 13:04:48

Elegran

Fryingpans and fire come into mind.

Indeed! My personal belief is that it's not Cummings who is pulling the strings. I think he's useful because he's not constrained by having to be accountable to voters and will go where others won't tread. I suspect Gove would keep him in that role.

What is really needed is for some Conservative politicians to show some back bone. The worst that could happen to them is that they lose the whip for four years, but they could still vote with the Conservatives when it suited them. They could be more accountable to their constituents and/or vote with their consciences.

After four years, they might not be selected, but they might have earned some respect and would almost certainly not be short of employment offers.

POGS Sun 23-Aug-20 13:07:13

I am a she by the way.

My comments re deaths were not directed at Antifa I have in my opinion been discussing the wider picture of the protests /riots/looting /vandalism /deaths which have been connected to the ANTIFA/Black Lives Matter ' radical activists' protesters not those who have every right to peaceful protest.

If that has been misconstrued I am happy to apologies as personal insult is insignificant when the world is going to hell in a hand cart and the matter should be open for discussion.

As for ANTIFA and it's history I obviously knew how it started but I prefer to understand and follow what is happening now, for my generation and my granddaughters generation. The same with having the knowledge of who, how Black Lives Matter was founded and where it has progressed.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/X56rQkDgd0qqB7R68t6t7C/seven-things-you-need-to-know-about-antifa

Extracts

Why do they all dress in black?

Like other protest movements dating back to Cold War era West German anarchists, Antifa supporters will often dress all in black, sometimes covering their faces with masks or helmets so they can’t be identified by opposing groups or the police. It's an intimidating tactic – known as a "black bloc" – which also allows them to move together as one anonymous group. There are also offshoots - one Antifa group in Oregon said they also have a "snack bloc" of people who provide food and water for their allies during protests.

What tactics do they use?

Antifa look to disrupt alt-right events and far-right speakers. They use a variety of tactics to do this – including shouting and chanting and forming human chains to block off right-wing demonstrators. Some are unapologetic about their online tactics, which include monitoring the far right on social media. They also release personal information about their opponents online, commonly known as "doxxing" – they’ve gotten some alt-right supporters fired from their jobs after identifying them online.

Antifa groups also use more traditional forms of community organising like rallies and protest marches. The most extreme factions will carry weapons like pepper spray, knives, bricks and chains – and they don’t rule out violence.

How violent are they?

Their willingness to use violence marks out Antifa from many other left-wing activists, although the Antifa members we spoke to said they denounce the use of weapons and violent direct action. They said if violence does occur, it’s as a form of self-defence. They also make historical arguments to justify their position. For instance, they ask, what if opponents of the German Nazi Party had been more forceful in their opposition in the 1930s, could World War Two and the Holocaust have been averted?

Antifa have been directly and sometimes physically confronting the far right on the streets and, in some cases, they have been successful in postponing, cutting short or cancelling rallies and speeches up and down America.
-

ANTIFA does not only concentrate on the far right these days in my opinion and it is openly anti capitalism, globalisation etc and will be found wherever it can conduct it's trade which usually is not in peaceful protest or allowing free speech to those they oppose and that is it's aim.

Whether a group is far left /far right it matters not a jot if violence/intimidation is initiated by that group in order to start a violent protest so I agree there is often blame to be found on both sides but when the mantra is disruption don't be surprised if that is how it is perceived.

Whitewavemark2 Sun 23-Aug-20 13:29:02

Accelerantionists and their followers top the violence and murder toll.

Anything related to Antifa pales into insignificance beside these white supremacist/ nationalist, klu klux klan etc. have achieved.

Grany Sun 23-Aug-20 13:54:57

I wouldn't say the monarchical system is benign far from it. It is undemocratic
Charles interferes in politics, lobbies the government to protect his own interests. This system gives a lot of power to government this head of state can only do what the government says not work in the interests of the people. So really what's it good for? It is secretive unacountable and corrupt

They cost 345 million Their annual report says 40 million.

Sovereign grant now stands at 80 million can never go down only up. Over 100 million in security costs. Then over 20 million each for the two duchies Charles runs his like own private feefdom its feudal People can't buy land which their houses sit on.

They travel everywhere by helicopters, etc including for their own private use. Who else is allowed to get away with this.

They spend public money as it's their own Nothing is done ever said about this.

An Elected Head of State could be chosen from Doctors sientists someone who has achieved something good in their field of work It would not nessessarily be a politition there are over 60 million people here there would be a wealth of talent to choose from. They could as a democracy also hold the government to account.

That's my opinion.

growstuff Sun 23-Aug-20 14:05:57

I don't agree with the tactics of Antifa or groups which advocate violence. However, it has often troubled me that I would have been one of the well meaning liberals who enabled Nazism by doing nothing.

"The road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference." (Sir Ian Kershaw)

Antifa are not the bogeymen Trump thinks they are. They're an irritant to law enforcers, but have never been responsible for the number of murders which neo-Nazis and other right-wing extremists have.

growstuff Sun 23-Aug-20 14:08:33

Ironically, there's some right-wing historian in the US who thinks the holocaust would never have happened if Jews had been allowed to own guns.

varian Sun 23-Aug-20 14:12:51

Returning to the question of Proportional Representation, according to Polly Toynbee-

"Starmer has backed a constitutional convention and electoral reform, but will need to push it through some diehard dinosaur recalcitrants to get it into the Labour manifesto. Nonetheless, a YouGov poll shows 75% of Labour members back PR."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/10/lead-lib-dems-labour-coalition-parties-leaders

growstuff Sun 23-Aug-20 14:13:44

Sorry! It wasn't a historian. It was Jay Simkin and Aaron S Zelman who presented the hypothesis that guns could have saved Jews in Germany.

What's the moral difference between using guns against Nazis and violence against fascists?

growstuff Sun 23-Aug-20 14:16:44

varian I fully support PR, but I've accepted that it won't happen. I think arguing for it is a waste of time in the current climate.

We need "Realpolitik" politics with people who can make a real difference to what's happening to this country now.

varian Sun 23-Aug-20 14:28:02

I am not saying we can bring about electoral reform any time soon growstuff, but it is absolutely necessary that we continue to campaign for a proper democracy, and the support of the Labour Party is crucial.

Those LP activists who Polly Toynbee describes as "diehard dinosaur recalcitrants" cling to their belief that the undemocratic FPTP system will eventually deliver a Labour government again, just because it has in the past.

It is time they woke up to the fact that times have changed and our political system must also change if we are ever to get rid of the corrupt right-wing Vote Leave dictatorship who have already done so much damage.

growstuff Sun 23-Aug-20 14:32:56

The "diehard dinosaur recalcitrants" need to accept that a socialist utopia isn't going to happen any time soon. PR as a voting system won't happen, but people on the left (and you don't need to be very left-wing to disagree with this government) need to swallow their differences and work together, which they would have to do with PR. To that extent, I agree with Toynbee.

trisher Sun 23-Aug-20 14:35:58

I suggest you read this about the protest in Portland POGS. The idea that those involved are violent activists isn't supported by the evidence. Most are local, most have never been arrested before, many are professionals, there was even a "Wall of Mums".https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/07/30/anarchists-and-antifa-not-according-to-the-data/

trisher Sun 23-Aug-20 14:36:15

Link www.mercurynews.com/2020/07/30/anarchists-and-antifa-not-according-to-the-data/

Jabberwok Sun 23-Aug-20 14:36:22

Boris was elected to get brexit done! Hunt (lovely man) would have been quite useless in that respect, the EU would have sorted fishing in 5 minutes flat by walking all over him and him agreeing to everything they asked! Did no one notice how relieved he was to lose the leadership, wonder why?! TM mark 2!! It was the WA that was oven ready not the trade deal, but then we all know that - yes we do,!!

varian Sun 23-Aug-20 14:40:16

Electoral Reform Society @electoralreform
·
We're calling for Labour to join others in backing proportional representation this #DemandDemocracy day

tickingbird Sun 23-Aug-20 14:45:48

It is all a pie in the sky discussion by dreamers. ?

Exactly Grandad!

growstuff Sun 23-Aug-20 14:49:20

What kind of Brexit was Johnson elected to "get done"? The day of reckoning is approaching.

varian Sun 23-Aug-20 15:30:21

Countries with PR are more successful at reducing carbon emissions than majoritarian countries

greenlibdems.org.uk/en/article/2020/1371468/countries-with-pr-are-more-successful-at-reducing-carbon-emissions-than-majoritarian-countries

How coronavirus pandemic has shown proportional representation is vital for UK

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/how-coronavirus-pandemic-has-shown-proportional-representation-vital-uk-wendy-chamberlain-mp-2878075

varian Sun 23-Aug-20 15:34:52

We believe the current voting system (First Past the Post) is unfair, outdated and not fit for purpose. We want to see FPTP replaced with a voting system in which everyone's vote counts, seats are allocated broadly in proportion to the votes cast, and the link is maintained between MPs and their constituents.

www.labourcampaignforelectoralreform.org.uk/