Conservative party internal investigation into racism

Totally agree tickingbird

Sorry Iam64 I didn’t realise.

Of course it was not antisemitic, in any way shape or form. It is the reality- and no, not all Jewish people carry the responsibility of the situation in Israel.

As for my last post- yes people are refusing to see that islamophobia is alive and well, particularly in some sections of the population- and very much so in the Conservative Party- who have chosen to shelve the investigation and report, for very good reasons. And it is hypocritical in the extreme.

Christians come in all guises- and the difference between Christian denominations, especially when looking at the whole world and not just the UK- is culturally massive. Same for other religious groups, be they Jewish or Muslim.

This is part of the problem; people can’t see when they are being anti Semitic.

Now I am not being controversial here but is being anti the actions of Israel the same as being anti Semitic? I don’t think it is but interested to hear others views.

Categorically no.

To qualify: Using the Palestinian situation as a stick with which to beat Jewish people is anti-semitic.

ticking bird ''Maybe it needs pointing out that there are many hardworking, decent, kind Jewish people and stigmatising them with ‘Palestine’ goes a long way in furthering division. The essence of that post was Jews deserve all they get because of the ongoing conflict in that area and the current Israeli government’s policies. It’s antisemitism clearly.''

now change the words with 'Muslims' and 'heinous crimes committed by mad men.

And that is the very point- that people refuse to see Islamophobia in the UK, and in the Conservative party. Because all are tarred with the same brush.

I have agreed wholeheartedly that Imams and Muslim communities should decry those awful crimes very loudly. When I said this to a Muslim friend the other day, he repied 'why should I apologise for a crime committed by madmen- if I apologise for them, I somehow make myself part of the problem. I am NOT' - and I see what he means.

I also believe the Jewish Communities and their leaders should totally distance themselves from the atrocious and criminal expansion into Palestine, and the heinous crimes committes against the Palestinian people. Some do - very loudly- others choose to close a blind eye and keep quiet.

And the point is- many are quite rightly appalled about antisemitism- but totally blind to Islamophobia. And the question is 'why'? Should all Muslims carry the responsibility of those terrible and inexcusable crimes?

Back to the OP - why has the Tory investigation and report been shelved? It was supposed to be independent- so it is not because the Government is too busy with Covid and BRexit.

One of the 11 examples of antisemitism in the IHRA definiton is -

"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."

I didn't see the post that was deleted so I don't know what was said about Jews or anti-semitism, but I've never understood why anyone would imagine that Jews living outside Israel and with no vote in Israeli elections are responsible for or even tacitly support the policies of the Israeli Government.

Biba70, if your deleted post wasn't antisemitic, why was it deleted?
RamblingRose22 has quoted one of the 11 definitions of antisemitism in the IHRA definition is "Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel".

I can't repeat the deleted post but imo, it fitted into that description and I suspect that's why it was deleted.

Lucca, of course it isn't antisemitic to criticise the actions of the Israeli government. Callistemon puts it well, it is antisemitic to use the actions of the Israeli government as a stick to beat Jewish people with.

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No Lucca, it’s not anti Semitic to criticise the actions of the government of Israel, but as Iam64 and Callistemon have already said, using the Palestinian situation as a stick to beat Jewish people is the anti Semitic behaviour.

Germany has apologised for the actions of their government during fascism, Tony Blair apologised for events during the time of the British Empire, apologies have been requested for behaviour towards black people historically, other countries and groups have apologised for behaviour towards various groups in the past. None of the apologisers were in any way involved with the actual behaviour that was being apologised for, so I don’t understand your friend’s position biba.

Davidhs What has been the position in continental Europe then? I don’t understand what you mean.

Neither do I , maddyone, understand Davidhs point about the position in continental Europe

Incidentally Davidhs, my Jewish friends are not as you describe, low profile, with their names as the only clue. They are a mixed bag, just like my friends of Muslim, Hindu or Christian background.
As for weather they support a homeland in Israel, my experience is yes of course they do. Their ancestors originate from that region. One of my close friends is from a family who fled pogroms in Poland at the turn of the last century. They chose the first name they saw on an ironmongers in Portsmouth as their "English " name. It was in fact, an unusual German name, which they still carry and caused some upset during WW2. Every member of their extended family who remained in Krakow was murdered in Auschwitz and yes, they all support a homeland in Israel. Though they are rooted in England.

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Davidhs - if you don't understand that you are repeating antisemitic tropes, I despair - again. That's a very offensive and inaccurate post - antisemitism again.

I’m not anti anything that’s what happened, it’s all history and has little bearing on the UK in 2020, we would be all the poorer without their contribution.

It isn't what happened Davidhs. Is that honestly what you think led to pogroms since the beginning of time

Davidhs - your statement reminds me of the false assertion by Jackie Walker, who was eventually expelled from the Labour Party for anti-semitism, that Jews financed the international slave trade.

Please fill an apparent gap in my knowledge of history by spelling out-

1. Which wars Jews financed, and please provide your information source.

2. What proportion of the total costs of these wars were financed by Jewish financiers? Again, please provide your information source.

3. Are you suggesting that pogroms and persecution was caused by the financing of wars by Jews? Again, please provide your information source.

To think that I imagined that pogroms and persecution were caused by anti-semitism. How silly of me!

I most certainly do not think that’s what happened Davidhs
I’m afraid as long as stories like that circulate we’ll never free of anti semitism.
Incidentally I’ve read quite widely around this subject which is how I know it not to be true.

The attacks by terrorists/jihadis in Europe are worrying. This country's alert level has been heightened in response. I read this morning that in France, there are concerns that in school, children aged 9 - 11 demonstrated support for the beheading of the teacher who showed the cartoons. De-radicalisation programmes appear to fail.
It isn't difficult to understand the frustration behind radicalisation but I can't understand why that translates into murdering ordinary people going about their business. Why behead a young soldier (Lee Rigby) or a young teacher. The IRA eventually realised that blowing up children wasn't helping their cause. What needs to happen to help these young men Muslim men stop their murderous attacks. I do recognise that most of the 'lone Woolf' attacks have involved young men with m/h problems, including drug use.

Not the point, I know, but I don’t see Islamophobia as racism as such, since there are Muslims of all colours/races in many different parts of the world. E.g. Indonesian Muslims are hardly the same race as e.g. Saudis or Turks.
Why isn’t ‘religionism’ a word? Because that’s what it is IMO.

Judaism OTOH is a race thing, because strictly speaking it descends via the mother to the child, and converts are relatively rare.

Witzend, maybe the word could be something like missionary religions, or evangelical, fundamentalist religions. That's where the problem lie. Fundamentalists who see beheading as a reasonable response to being upset. The dreadful evangelical Christians in the US who believe shooting a doctor because s/he was involved in abortion is a reasonable response. It's extremists in any faith or belief system that cause the problems

Iam64''Lucca, of course it isn't antisemitic to criticise the actions of the Israeli government. Callistemon puts it well, it is antisemitic to use the actions of the Israeli government as a stick to beat Jewish people with.''

and I totally agree, 100%. So why is it OK for the heinous and inexcusable crimes of a few Muslim mad men- to be used as a stick to beat all Muslims with, and Islam too? THAT is my point- the hypocrisy of it all.

Why do the good, intelligent, humane Jews of the world NOT loudly condemn the expansion into Palestine in the most vicious, inhumane and cruelest of ways? Some of my Jewish friends do, but the vast majority either stays silent, or actually support the expansion, and with it, the methods used.