Since 1967, the Palestinian people are being destroyed in the most inhumane of ways

Davidhs - you are absolutely correct and the world knows it. It’s a collective determination that what happened during The Holocaust won’t happen again.

Many Jews vehemently disagree with the hardline taken by the Israeli government towards Palestine but Israel will fight to the death in it’s defence of it’s right to exist. I’m pretty sure they have nuclear capability but they have no intention of obliterating the Middle East. If those mad mullahs in Iran had such capability they wouldn’t hesitate to wipe Israel off the map, and they wouldn’t give much, if any, thought to any of their fellow muslims that were vaporised in the process.

ayse I find it so difficult to understand why, after the Holocaust that they would treat others as they themselves have been treated
[
confused] The Jewish people were victims of the Holocaust. The Palestinians are the victims of the State of Israel. You have fallen into that trap of conflating State with the population, Jewish people with the State of Israel. This is where accusations of anti-semitism arise. A government and the actions of a State are not the actions of its population!

Palestine is occupied. The Palestinians are increasingly forcibly evicted from their own land, their own State. The State of Israel does not recognise Palestine as a State!
This atrocity does make the headlines from time to time. The UN issues warnings from time to time. Nothing is ever done to stop it!
France was occupied during WW2. If France was occupied now what would the reaction be? Would the Nations of the World sit on their hands or act? I think Nation States would act.

It's not right that Nation States are sitting on their hands and allowing the atrocity in Palestine to continue. The Palestinian population deserve more!

Jane10 The same reason Hitler and his henchmen rounded up 6 million men, women and children and beat, starved, experimented and worked them to death. Oh and let’s not forget Zyklon B.

You’re in good company.

The Jewish people were victims of the Holocaust. The Palestinians are the victims of the State of Israel. You have fallen into that trap of conflating State with the population, Jewish people with the State of Israel. This is where accusations of anti-semitism arise. A government and the actions of a State are not the actions of its population!

Exactly

tickingbird Iraq was for many years supported and funded by the USA in order to wage war against Iran, The problem is when you supply a country with arms you shouldn't be surprised if they invade somewhere else.

tickingbird- ridiculous and insulting overreaction. This is now. Why is this happening? Why is it allowed to happen?

Repeats previously deleted post.

A government and the actions of a State are not the actions of its population.

In a democracy, the electorate must accept a share of responsibility for its government’s actions, especially if the same government gets re-elected.

Much of the criticism of Israel comes from liberal and also strongly orthodox Jews. Are you suggesting they are somehow antisemitic tickingbird?

I got an insight into the Jewish state of mind when I went to work up in London for a predominantly Jewish firm. I was in my late teens and I confess to being very young and naive then. So unaware was I that the people around me were actually Jewish, in spite of their names being a giveaway, which I'd know now, but not then. I'd been there a couple of months when around Autumn time most of the office were wishing each other "Happy New Year" I was baffled until one of the girls I was friendly with said "didn't you know we were Jewish?" "well no said I" fresh out of my convent school in Surrey, where strangely there weren't any Jewish girls around me! Well that was my light bulb moment, after that it was somewhat of an education. Whilst they could be lovely people, in fact quite nurturing in many respects, even though I wasn't one of them, I must have ingratiated myself, they were all very nice to me and the matriarch of the office treated me like her long lost daughter. However, I recognised a tunnel vision attitude, even at that age. There was a major Arab/Israeli conflict at the time, can't remember which one, it was in the '70s, they, my firm, were raising money as were many Jewish people in London to send to the state of Israel, some had relatives there. I made the comment one day "what about the Palestinians though surely they have valid grievances?" and they fell on me like a pack of wolves defending their stance, but of course........there are always two sides and the displacement of the Palestinians is a great injustice. My perception from that time, and having visited Israel a decade or so later in the '80s, and speaking to Israelis there, centuries of persecution and genocide of course has affected the Jewish psyche, and possibly "some" have lost the ability to emote with their Palestinian counterparts. Suffering similar injustices that the relatively new emigres to Israel, or possibly family members would have experienced in the hell that was 1930s/40s Nazi Germany and Europe per se. One of the memories I have from that time is seeing a table of older people in an outside restaurant, bearing in mind it was very hot, many had their tattooed number very visible, what horrors they must have seen!. Another memory I took from Israel is an impression of the Jewish Sabras, especially the young ones who had been in the army or had the draft in front of them, were that they were a very tough and fit force to be reckoned with. Quite different from the paler Hassidic Eastern European Jews. There was I felt a prevalent hard wired mindset of "we'll never let genocide happen to us again at any cost and will go to any lengths to defend our country"

I went through a stage of reading about the Spanish Inquisition in my teens and remember feeling disgusted with the religion I'd been brought up in, that again that was a bit of an eye opener which I certainly didn't learn about at school

For me there's a dichotomy as to feeling an absolute horror about the centuries of persecution that the Jewish people have suffered, but also recognising that the tormented can become the tormentors.

I know my mother said she was very affected by what people found out about the existence of the concentration camps in the aftermath of the war and reading Anne' Frank's Diary subsequently. She also told me that she felt that the Jewish community always enriched the societies they lived in and to lose them was a tragedy. I only uncovered fairly recently that she had some Jewish ancestry in her family, she'd have loved to have known that.

Interesting post Terribull.

I have no problem with criticism of Israel trisher and have stated so on several occasions and on different threads.

Anti Jewish propaganda has been around for centuries. Groundless allegations and superstitious bigotry passed down through the ages became unacceptable after the death camps but 70 years later it’s reemerging and, once again, becoming acceptable. Talk of cabals and a Jewish world conspiracy. No doubt there’s a Jewish plot behind the present pandemic!! Israel and Palestine are just a convenient hook for some to hang their prejudices on.

I can't really agree with you grummpa. Have you ever heard the saying "no matter who you vote for the government always gets in"? How many different governments has Israel had since 1967? The current one is not the same one as it was then. The song remains the same, no matter who is voted into office it seems.

Great post Terribull and of course there is nearly always (but not always always!) two sides to a story/conflict.
In this case, there really are two sides to this conflict, the West must stay out of it, but can lean politically and diplomatically on Israel about certain things that go on.However, they feel very imperilled on all sides, surrounded as they are by Arab countries, and will do anything to strengthen themselves.

I agree, good post Terribull.
As lemon says, they feel threatened on all sides. Until I actually visited Israel I didn't realise how tiny the country is, compared with all the huge hostile Arab/Muslim states around them:
duckduckgo.com/?t=ffhp&q=map+of+Israel+and+surroundung+nations&iax=images&ia=images&iai=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.generationaldynamics.com%2Fww2010%2Fmideast2.gif

It seems that any criticism of Israel is seen as anti semitism. I am not and never have been anti Semitic, but have problems with the Israel government.

However as has been said if the electorate disagreed with the very poor treatment of their neighbours they do have a way of changing this. They havnt, apart from the brave Israeli prime minister (whose name escapes me, sorry ) who wanted peace with Palestine but who was assassinated.

Israel is powerful in itself, indeed it’s a force to be reckoned with, and has powerful friends who can always be depended on for military and financial support.

The Palestine situation has gone on for over 70 years and their treatment by Israel and the world has been shameful We as so often, were involved at the very start of this and left the Palestinians to it after the King David attacks by Israel. There is no freedom of movement, Palestinians are trapped in Gaza or the West Bank, completely surrounded by Israel who strictly control the border access points. They rely totally on Israel allowing goods and medical treatment over the border and many thousands have died since, the majority of these Palestinian.

The prime minister was Yitsak Rabin assassinated in 1995 by a far right Israeli student.

lemon why must the West stay out of it? They have interfered massively in other Middle Eastern countries, admitedly with dire results. It is rather naive to think there is no interference anyway the US provides Israel with huge amounts of financial and military support.

And you know why trisher - to help protect their oil interests.

Undoubtedly, there are justifiable grievances from the Arabic world regarding the unequivocal support from ongoing American governments in their support of the State of Israel. However, can't help thinking that lack of even handiness from various American administrations, are used as a conduit for justifying continued random attacks in the west by Arab extremists Is there not a selectiveness in that mindset? For example, there appears to be a deafening silence from the Arab world in their lack of criticism of the Chinese government in their forcible incarceration of 14 million of some of their Muslim brethren, the Uighur Muslims. Contrast that silence with the crazed demonstrations that are ongoing in parts of the Muslim world, particularly lately apropos of Macron's support for free speech as to the publication of those damn cartoons, a collection of fatuous, infantile drawings, best ignored and recognised for their absolute crassness. It could also be argued that the "Jewish mural" which had all the hallmarks of depicting and promoting a pejorative vision of the cliched Jewish cabal. Nevertheless, as insulting as it was, it didn't result in Jewish people running amok with the intention of taking the heads off those who produced that nasty piece of work, or indeed random members of the general public.

Terribull - interesting posts.

Silverlining "any criticism of Israel is seen as antisemitism". Where is that the case in this discussion. Many people, including me, have stated clearly that criticism of the current Israeli government and its treatment of Palestine is not antisemitic.

Iam I was not referring to opinions about anti semitism made in this discussion, I was stating my position which is in agreement with yours and others who have posted.

Thank for the clarification silverlining48.

Egypt is the key to keeping the peace, as long as they continue to suppress the extremists there will be no war, to this end the US gives $ 1.3 billion each year in military aid, the Democrats support that. Being a military officer in Egypt is very well paid indeed so they are very diligent.

The other credible threat is Iran if it gets nuclear weapons, despite Trump interfering the US is trying to negotiate them away. If that fails Israel will take action and stop them itself, they really are that dangerous.