The E.U. And AstraZeneca row.

Callistemon

^You are looking at it as a political issue and not a biological issue.^
It would be an organisational issue and with it the danger of fraud and exploitation.

How does anyone who insists it is a political issue address the real and existential danger of mutation in countries who are by reason of their economic muscle going to be the last to be vaccinated?

What happens in these countries will directly affect us.

I am anti Brexut, but that does not mean I think the EU is perfect and I would prefer we were able to influence their policies from within rather than merely moan about them from the sidelines. The UK has dithered and delayed on many issues in this pandemic, we are far from exemplary, you've only got to look at the death rates, the EU has reversed its initial threat, and Michel Barnier has said this was not helpful. We rely on the EU for many things, and that will not change anytime soon.

The point is that the UN record, particularly in those places petra listed, is not good.

I listened to Arlene Foster being interviewed yesterday and she was absolutely furious at the way the extremely arrogant, incompetent EU had treaded them. The EU who didn’t think to notify the Irish governments North or South. It beggars believe.

.

It is not the EU who made promises (and paid a lot of money too) to NI- like Johnson saying there would be NO paper work, etc, and that if anyone had any to fill, to just put it in the paper basket, or send them to him and he would bin them, etc. And in the context of vaccines and the EU, Johnson was the one to first mention triggering art 16, not the EU.

Many of us warned, again and again, that the border issue between the UK/NI and the Ireland/EU- was not possible to solve, and that it would lead to unbearable friction between UK- NI- and Ireland/EU - and as per usual, the repeated reply was 'ahaha project fear'.

It has not been solved, and there is NO solution- and it will create unberable friction- especially in a crisis- as per Covid.

seamstress

I am anti Brexut, but that does not mean I think the EU is perfect and I would prefer we were able to influence their policies from within rather than merely moan about them from the sidelines. The UK has dithered and delayed on many issues in this pandemic, we are far from exemplary, you've only got to look at the death rates, the EU has reversed its initial threat, and Michel Barnier has said this was not helpful. We rely on the EU for many things, and that will not change anytime soon.

You've just said what I wanted to say, seamstress. Thank you.

At least this spat was a reversible blip. Not like the fallout from Boris's Botched Brexit...

MaizieD

seamstress

I am anti Brexut, but that does not mean I think the EU is perfect and I would prefer we were able to influence their policies from within rather than merely moan about them from the sidelines. The UK has dithered and delayed on many issues in this pandemic, we are far from exemplary, you've only got to look at the death rates, the EU has reversed its initial threat, and Michel Barnier has said this was not helpful. We rely on the EU for many things, and that will not change anytime soon.

You've just said what I wanted to say, seamstress. Thank you.

At least this spat was a reversible blip. Not like the fallout from Boris's Botched Brexit...

And both of you have said what I wanted to say but I did not want to be part of yet another Brexit discussion. What do they say? Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good. There is much good in having a European Union and there was much good in being part of it and they were the "goods" which I can argue for politically and as a human being. There is never likely to be perfection in any political setup.

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England Firecracker123? Bit of a giveaway there...

Yes I live in England, should I have been pc and put England, Wales, Scotland and NI ?

The WHO appears to be suggesting that the countries with plenty of vaccine should halt after they have vaccinated their vulnerable and share with countries who have little or none.

PippaZ

The WHO appears to be suggesting that the countries with plenty of vaccine should halt after they have vaccinated their vulnerable and share with countries who have little or none.

Couldn’t agree more.

No one seems to understand that it is in our best interests to do just that.

I agree with it too but I do feel a bit guilty that this would mean I would get my vaccine but deny, for a period of time, others getting theirs.

Then continue pulling the government to pieces over the rising deaths? Boris has already stated that some of the vaccine we have will be going to Africa. Macron stopped a shipment of PPE destined for us last year. Why should the people of the UK go without for the sake of Europe? The amount of flak this government have taken since this awful situation began is immense. Some of it justified but not all by a long way. When they get something right, they are still in the wrong. I find it depressing how some appear to hate their own country so much.

I’m pretty sure that politicians are well aware that ‘no one is secure until we are all secure’.
Our government has been elected to look after our interests and whilst ensuring that we are all vaccinated they will also be ensuring that the poorest countries will too. Whether for altruistic reasons or purely selfish motives it will happen worldwide.
Just a we would all ensure our own children are fed before we fed others.

Disagreeing with a government isnot hating our own country. Democracy and free speech are two of the things I most appreciate about this country.

PippaZ

I agree with it too but I do feel a bit guilty that this would mean I would get my vaccine but deny, for a period of time, others getting theirs.

But you see we can’t look at it in such a subjective way? Well we can but those making such decisions can’t and mustn’t

No harm with feeling guilty that’s being human, but the scientists will/should look at it for the greater good of the species.

I realise I’m talking into the wind though because we seem to be going through a particular unpleasant period in our history of me me me and sod the rest of you.

LauraNorder

I’m pretty sure that politicians are well aware that ‘no one is secure until we are all secure’.
Our government has been elected to look after our interests and whilst ensuring that we are all vaccinated they will also be ensuring that the poorest countries will too. Whether for altruistic reasons or purely selfish motives it will happen worldwide.
Just a we would all ensure our own children are fed before we fed others.

Too simplistic

Whitewavemark2

LauraNorder

I’m pretty sure that politicians are well aware that ‘no one is secure until we are all secure’.
Our government has been elected to look after our interests and whilst ensuring that we are all vaccinated they will also be ensuring that the poorest countries will too. Whether for altruistic reasons or purely selfish motives it will happen worldwide.
Just a we would all ensure our own children are fed before we fed others.

Too simplistic

I apologise for my reply it was too dismissive.

Laura yes I can see exactly what you are saying, but from an objective biological perspective it makes no sense.

The virus doesn’t operate in the way we would like but is an excellent opportunist that will make the most of every chink in our armour of which if we allow it through nationalistic actions will be immense.

"we seem to be going through a particular unpleasant period in our history of me me me and sod the rest of you". The EU's 'threat' to interfere with the pre ordered vaccinations destined for the UK looks to me like 'us us us and sod the UK'.

These are the vaccines that the UK has secured:

Oxford-AstraZeneca – 100 million doses
Valneva – 60 million doses
Novavax – 60 million doses
GlaxoSmithKline – 60 million doses
Pfizer-BioNTech – 40 million doses Janssen – 30 million doses
Moderna – 17 million doses

Three have been approved, Astra Zeneca, Pfizer and Moderna. A total of 157million doses. This alone is sufficient to give 2 doses to every single member of the UK jpopulation. (UK pop. is Just under 70 million)

Then there are another theoretical 180 million doses available if the remaining vaccines are approved. Enough to double dose the whole population again, with a few million to spare.

It looks as though we are in a good position to share with with other countries.

Or am I missing something?

(And no, I don't expect them to all be available at once, I realise that there is a time element in manufacturing them)

And, it should be noted that A16 was not invoked.

Maths error. Possible additional doses 210 million, I missed the Jansen ones off.

The Glaxo should be interesting as last I heard they were developing an immune adjunct, so I wonder if it means just one shot?

What would you have us do Whitewave? It is logistically impossible to supply enough vaccine and to get it in to all arms worldwide at the same time.
Western governments will protect their own for largely political reasons but will also endeavour, at the same time, to protect their own citizens by making every effort to protect others throughout the world, as far as possible.
This may be simplistic but is nevertheless true.
I understand that the whole process needs to be speedy if we are to avoid more deadly variants evolving but I also understand that the logistics involved are nigh on impossible
There is also a case for keeping our own society strong both in health and economy so that we continue to be in a position to help those less fortunate or able elsewhere.