Scottish independence, English me would like to understand

If you mean who decided on the PR system used in Scotland, PippaZ, it was Labour who were in power in the UK when the Scottish Parliament was set up in its modern form, not the Tories.

Lemongrove why would population size matter?
Doesn't the UK government have the sense to allocate resources per head of population?
If not, it's the UK government you should be castigating.

lemongrove

It could only realistically be voted out (SNP) when the question of independence has finally been put to bed.

SNP gets a lot of votes from Scots voters.
If the majority of Scots voters decide they aren't interested in independence, they won't vote SNP.

Simple, really.
It's not some kind of plot by SNP that no-one can foil.

Mollygo

I have no idea whether Conservatives ever asked for proportional representation, but if they did, it certainly wasn’t whilst they were in power. I can’t find evidence of Labour or other parties supporting the idea when they were in power either. Liberals certainly didn’t include PR under their reforms when they were last in power.
There is lots of evidence about support for PR by Labour currently. See varian above, but they’re not currently in power.
I said ‘it seems to be the party not in power’ and ‘as long as I can remember’ it has been so.
You said above, ‘there are groups who have been wanting it as long as you can remember’ -does your memory extend to identifying whether those groups want it when they are in power.
As to being economical with the truth, if you mean me, I don’t understand what I’ve done to incur such rudeness from you.
If you mean politicians from any party, whether in power or not, I’ll support your point of view.

Now I thought the Conservatives were in power, with the help of the Liberal Democrats, in 2011 Mollygo.

Fact: The United Kingdom Alternative Vote referendum, also known as the UK-wide referendum on the Parliamentary voting system was held on Thursday 5 May 2011

As I said, they offered a bastardised system of PR and, what I did not say as I thought those of you who are so sure about these things would remember, they also told us it would be too difficult for our little brains.

Wheniwasyourage

If you mean who decided on the PR system used in Scotland, PippaZ, it was Labour who were in power in the UK when the Scottish Parliament was set up in its modern form, not the Tories.

That wasn't what I was referring to Wheniwasyourage but I do like a good fact. Thankyou

Sorry! I misunderstood your post.

FarNorth

lemongrove

It could only realistically be voted out (SNP) when the question of independence has finally been put to bed.

SNP gets a lot of votes from Scots voters.
If the majority of Scots voters decide they aren't interested in independence, they won't vote SNP.

Simple, really.
It's not some kind of plot by SNP that no-one can foil.

The Scots showed in the referendum that they weren’t interested in independence ( the so called once in a generation one) yet the SNP are still the majority party.
It’s not so simple after all.

So those who, when asked, wanted to keep the status quo voted against independence, but those who turned out to vote for the party of their choice wanted the SNP and were more motivated to do so. The SNP/Independence voters and canvassers were clearly more active than the other parties, who need to become more relevant and more attractive. That doesn't mean being a reflection of the same parties as exist south of the border.

Wheniwasyourage

Sorry! I misunderstood your post.

It's okay. We all do it from time to time. If this was visual we would see the puzzled look on the other persons face and adjust what we made of what they said and no one would think twice about it. I'm sure that would save a lot of crossed wires

The Scots showed in the referendum that they weren’t interested in independence ( the so called once in a generation one) yet the SNP are still the majority party.
It’s not so simple after all.

You're right, it's not so simple.

Everything has changed since 2014.
The Scots were told that independence would mean leaving the EU. As they voted to remain in the EU two years later it seems fairly obvious that the prospect of leaving it in 2014 was a significant factor in their vote.

Since then, we have left, against their will. This is also a significant factor. Support for Indie and 'rejoining' has been steadily growing over the past 4 years. I would imagine even more so now they've seen the calamitous effect on their fish export industry (and no doubt others which are caught by the non-tariff barriers)

As for the 'once in a generation' guff. Fancy believing that

Especially when you've recently voted the for the ultimate consummate liar...

The cynic in me thinks everything will keep on changing though MaizieD. There’s a general dissatisfaction in the whole of the UK at the moment and I think there are some radical changes on the way both here and in Europe. It remains to be seen whether the credibility of any of the parties, including the SNP will hold - I think we will be in a different place in 5 years time, and maybe Scotland will vote for independence and maybe it won’t..

I think there are some radical changes on the way both here and in Europe.

As the current 'radical change' in the UK is moves to reduce devolved powers I don't see it changing the mind of the Scots towards remaining in the union.

I’m thinking slightly further ahead than that. Please don’t think I’m opposed to Scottish independence, I’m not - I just think other things will happen soon.

I'm intrigued. What 'other things' do you have in mind, Casdon?

This sounds quite exciting Casdon. I wonder what you are thinking will change?

Just my thoughts, obviously but I think the post COVID slump in the economy worldwide, people increasingly waking up to the impact on the environment of the way we have been living and conducting our business, and Britain’s diminishing post-Brexit status and influence will force societal and political change within the next few years. I’d be surprised if this government sees out its term.

I'd be delighted if the government doesn't see out its term, but the main opposition party isn't too keen on Scottish independence, either...though he's proposing a far more federal arrangement and more devolution to the regions.

We will find out pretty soon where the land is lying I think, interesting times ahead for sure - I think we’ll be in a different place in six months, one way or another. Federalism will be good for the English regions, whatever happens for Scotland in my opinion.

One comment and one question. On looking back in this post some posters are saying a vote for an SNP candidate is a vote for independence. That is not always the case. In some areas a candidate may be involved in issues pertaining to the local area which outweigh what party they stand for. I do know people who vote for the SNP candidate who would not want independence so the two do not necessarily go together (and we are not in an area with any specific issues). In some instances the other candidates are so lacking what do you do. Not vote?
Sorry that comment ended with a question!
My question is to those who are pro independence. The LSE study came out recently showing that individuals in Scotland would be thousands worse off in the event of independence even if we were allowed back in the EU. Why shouldn't I believe that study? Thanks

DustyHen2010 I agree that a vote for the SNP is not a vote for independence. I fact I think I've said that a couple of times above. But I don't think anyone who votes SNP doesn't know that they are voting for a party who wants independence, so they shouldn't be surprised if that's what their MSP/MP talks about.

Regarding the LSE study, I haven't read the whole thing but it basically says if all the trade with England you currently have is gone, then everybody will be worse off.

No consideration to the removal of costs for things we don't want, (e.g. Trident), no consideration of new tax raising powers etc. Even the normally Union supporting BBC said:
What the report does not tell you are the directions or strengths of other dynamics that could be expected with independence such as business investment, inward investment, migration, changes to tax policy or to productivity or a potential change of currency.

Project Fear part II - The Empire Strikes Back

My favourite blogger has a take on the LSE report:

It's worth a read, though I think the link says it all...

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2021/02/04/the-lse-report-on-the-increased-costs-in-trade-for-an-independent-scotland-is-based-on-unsubstantiated-data-and-absurd-assumptions/

Alegrias1

DustyHen2010 I agree that a vote for the SNP is not a vote for independence. I fact I think I've said that a couple of times above. But I don't think anyone who votes SNP doesn't know that they are voting for a party who wants independence, so they shouldn't be surprised if that's what their MSP/MP talks about.

Regarding the LSE study, I haven't read the whole thing but it basically says if all the trade with England you currently have is gone, then everybody will be worse off.

No consideration to the removal of costs for things we don't want, (e.g. Trident), no consideration of new tax raising powers etc. Even the normally Union supporting BBC said:
What the report does not tell you are the directions or strengths of other dynamics that could be expected with independence such as business investment, inward investment, migration, changes to tax policy or to productivity or a potential change of currency.

Project Fear part II - The Empire Strikes Back

Certainly it is known that an SNP candidate will have independence at the core of their policies and all I was saying was that you can't look at every SNP vote and say it is one for independence. As I mentioned before usually the pro Union voters are quiet about their feelings as it can cause a bit of conflict among groups. I saw that at the previous referendum when one lady I know talked constantly about historical events and why those who didn't agree with her on independence were fools. Eventually the majority in the group kept quiet.
Re LSE report. I expect there will be further analysis of this ongoing and more studies coming out.

you can't look at every SNP vote and say it is one for independence.

Agreed DustyHen2010 The opposite of that is that when some people talk about why they don't want independence they immediately point out the shortcomings of our current SNP government, which is not an argument at all.

An anecdote about conflict in 2014. I was reluctant to put my "Yes" sticker on my car in case I got targeted. But after a while I realised that we were really having a grown up conversation and that any unpleasantness was confined to a tiny minority on both sides. That said I got a lot of "robust" comments about my support for independence so it works both ways. I'm easily led, stupid, heart rules my head, living in the past, hate the English etc. The last one always amused my English-born DH....

I'm sure that there will be more reports like the LSE's as we go forward.

The British government is in fact an English government surely most of you realise that ? Brexit was English nationalism at its best /worst .Being in the EU for Scotland is totally different to being in the UK .The EU has very little control over the sovereign countries it encompasses ,WM on the other hand has huge power over us .
Devolution by its very name is just power retained by another ,England .We are "allowed" a tiny input in affairs in our own country and WM takes control of everything else.IF they were dong a great job I could understand why some would be happy to be ruled by them ,but lets face it they have labelled Scotland as scrounging whinging drunks and lost causes for decades while raiding our coffers for their vanity projects ,dumped nuclear waste in our waters and denied us democracy .
Dustyhen what exactly is it about English rule that you think is better than Independence? Haven't WM said all the same lies about EVERY country that gained their freedom from the chins of the "british" government ,none of the many have ever come back ..and most if not all have flourished when not having their funds raided for things like HS2 or London sewers etc etc etc .
I understand that tehEnglish people on here thing they havethe best the most Democratic system in the world.Sadly you've been conned ,if the EU was undemocratic then have a closer look at the HOUSE OF LORDS brimming with pals and folk who gave backhanders to geta job for life .Not MY idea of democracy !
Can you remember that it was SCOTS who made the inventions the innovations the discoveries and just about everything else that MADE the Uk great .Why not do the same things for ourselves

Paddyanne your last sentence was so outrageous that it made me laugh out loud, people won’t take anything you say seriously if you make wild statements like that.