Scottish independence, English me would like to understand

That's what I was saying

At least Scotland hangs onto some welfare state principles...

There is zero chance of changing to a PR system because neither Tories or Labour want it.
If it were to happen, the UK would have a government in continual flux with leaders changing most years just like Italy or Australia. Just like Theresa May had, no majority to do anything, hamstrung by extremists on both sides

It would depend upon the type of system. I have no problem with leaders being hamstrung - it would save vanity projects such as HS2.

Scotland hasn't voted for a majority tory govermnt for well over 60 years mcurrently they are polling at 16% down from Ruth Davidsons 22% which was apparently a SURGE from Thatchers "disastrous" 24% in the 80's ,Yet look how many years we've had to live under tory rule .THIS is not democracy.Independence is NORMAL .

Saying that PR would never happen because neither the Tories or the Labour Party want it illustrates perfectly why we should have it.

This should not be about two well funded parties serving the interests of their funders and being able to gain a majority of seats on the basis of a minority of votes - what has been termed "an elective dictatorship".

There are many countries which have changed from an undemocratic FPTP system of elections, and as far as I know there has never been a democratic country which changed to the sham democracy of FPTP.

www.electoral-reform.org.uk/campaigns/electoral-reform/

FarNorth

Dustyhen if Westminster is providing those things to Scotland, why is it not providing them to England also?

A little matter of population size!
I doubt the population of Scotland is any more than Greater London.

Katie59

There is zero chance of changing to a PR system because neither Tories or Labour want it.
If it were to happen, the UK would have a government in continual flux with leaders changing most years just like Italy or Australia. Just like Theresa May had, no majority to do anything, hamstrung by extremists on both sides

Excellent point.??
Any administration needs some time to plan and put it’s policies in place.PR is a terrible idea.

The democratic countries of the world regard proportional representation as an excellent idea, which is one reason why they do so much better that autocracies, dictatorships and sham democracies like the UK.

Of the 43 European countries, 40 use some form of proportional representation.

So one one hand we can't have PR because of the instability it causes with things changing all the time.

On the other hand, the PR system in Scotland has resulted in a government that people say will never be voted out.

What am I missing?!?!?

Katie59

There is zero chance of changing to a PR system because neither Tories or Labour want it.
If it were to happen, the UK would have a government in continual flux with leaders changing most years just like Italy or Australia. Just like Theresa May had, no majority to do anything, hamstrung by extremists on both sides

I think we have all too recently seen, something that many would have said had a zero chance of our country changing, happen.

Obviously we might expect lies to be told and some of our worst characteristics appealed to but maybe the next time it wouldn't need such underhand tactics. We can but hope.

It is time to compare voting systems and not just keep the bad system that we currently have.

www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voting-systems/types-of-voting-system/

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202102/medium-105183-3b1a3f7f-ded1-4dab-b47e-64fda06f3218.jpeg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202102/medium-779004-88b05791-f916-4314-9941-c46dfd070aa9.png

Casdon

Elegran does Scotland currently provide water to England, I couldn’t see any evidence, and I’d be interested to know?
I know Wales does, 133 billion litres a year are committed in the Welsh Water licence to provide for the needs of Birmingham. The reservoirs are near where I live.

I know that this is nothing to do with Scotland but as it came up in the Times today I thought that after reading casdon’s post
it may be interesting.
So the area round Lagos is having a problem with their water supply.
My dad in the Lagos area before independence. He’s on a water pipe laying project in 1959. No problem then.
I’m not suggesting that Scotland is anything like Nigeria and will probably never run out of water but I thought it was interesting that it came up today.
Better together.

It could only realistically be voted out (SNP) when the question of independence has finally been put to bed.

Labour now backs proportional representation for executive elections. Next stop: PR for Westminster

www.electoral-reform.org.uk/labour-now-backs-proportional-representation-for-executive-elections-next-stop-pr-for-westminster/

No. lemongrove, like any other party, the SNP can only be voted out when there is someone else worth voting for, which is not the case at the moment. I'm sure that if Scottish Labour were not the pathetic branch office that they are, they would do a lot better.

It always seems to be the party not in power that wants proportional representation. The urge to implement it dies away if they have won an election.

Yet another good argument for Bunning our undemocratic FPTP system.

Mollygo

It always seems to be the party not in power that wants proportional representation. The urge to implement it dies away if they have won an election.

Is that true. I don't remember the Conservatives every actually wanting PR. Isn't that why they offered the bastardised version when they felt they had to allow a vote? Equally there are groups who have been wanting it for as long as I can remember.

Too easy to make comments that are there to please those who only want their own opinions re-enforced. I will be happy to say you are right if you can give some references to your post.

Being economical with the truth. Now who did that?

When did the majority of UK voters ever support either the Tory Party or the Labour Party?

If democracy means majority rule and no single party gets the majority of votes then surely two or more parties which in total represent the majority of voters must co-operate and govern in coalition.

Anything else is undemocratic - a sham democracy, not a true democracy.

It might teach them to work together instead of against each other.

The d'hondt system was invented to stop any prty having a majority win.The SNP however did win a majority ..not the last election the one before Lemongrove you do understand that they are democratically ELECTED by the people of Scotland who KNOW that core policy is Independence ?
I we didn't want them we wouldn't vote for them.So maybe a wee bit of respect for OUR choice..or does democracy only count when its tories being voted for in England?

I'm with paddyanne on this one. When people talk about Nicola/the SNP always going on about independence, they forget that's what they got elected for. As though they were foisting something on the Scottish populace that nobody wants. Over 50% of the seats in our parliament are held by independence-supporting parties in a system that was designed to prevent majorities.

I have no idea whether Conservatives ever asked for proportional representation, but if they did, it certainly wasn’t whilst they were in power. I can’t find evidence of Labour or other parties supporting the idea when they were in power either. Liberals certainly didn’t include PR under their reforms when they were last in power.
There is lots of evidence about support for PR by Labour currently. See varian above, but they’re not currently in power.
I said ‘it seems to be the party not in power’ and ‘as long as I can remember’ it has been so.
You said above, ‘there are groups who have been wanting it as long as you can remember’ -does your memory extend to identifying whether those groups want it when they are in power.
As to being economical with the truth, if you mean me, I don’t understand what I’ve done to incur such rudeness from you.
If you mean politicians from any party, whether in power or not, I’ll support your point of view.