Scottish independence, English me would like to understand

I think if the majority vote for it in Scotland it should happen. What is difficult, as has played out with the UK leaving the EU as well, is that it could well be a margin of decision that leaves a large minority disenfranchised. There’s no easy way forward when that happens, as is clear from countries all over the world.

I said there may well be
As the last referendum proved

If I said the moon was made of igneous rock and iron I expect you'd argue with me MaizieD and say it was made of green cheese.
??

Every time, it's so predictable it's funny
???

But then I realised that all the anti-independence viewpoints I'd read today were about how Scotland couldn't manage on our own and how difficult things would be for us if we left.

I will have no say, Alegrias unless the unthinkable happened and we had to move to Scotland before a referendum, but I would prefer the Union to remain intact, understand the reasoning for leave with Brexit but, really, it matters not a jot to me.

That'll be like the 'quiet majority' that were going to vote Trump back into power last November, then?

Are you likening those who wish to remain as part of the UK to Trump supporters then, MaizieD?

Sorry MaizieD you’re right I’d not read ALL the thread but my bit of news I was sharing had only been in the newspaper that particular morning & I felt it might be interesting.
?

Alegrias your posts are a quiet but sensible persuasion for independence. I would feel saddened (? Lessened) to have Scotland leave the Union but I can completely understand the desire of many to do just that. Long term it won’t affect me (I dare say) and so I just say I wish you all well, whatever the outcome.

Splitting up 300 years of togetherness will take some sorting! Brexit will seem a piece of cake by comparison (especially as the pandemic takes precedence and who knows - that might be burying some of the Brexit messes under the carpet in the short term).

Where to begin with what currency to use. Sharing of debt and dividends. Will the royal family play any part? What about defence?

As regards a border, none should be necessary surely with today’s technology and ‘trusted trader’ agreements? Mind you I felt the same about NI and Eire but the EU weren’t budging and things have got messy, 5 weeks in.

In summary all I can say is ‘all the best’ and sincerely meant. I like Scotland and it’s people too much to wish ill fate, even if it does mean you’ll leave us. I think you will go. But is there really going to be a continued groundswell of support for doing so? I’m a bit doubtful.

Alegrias1

I was feeling a bit guilty about always coming back with a quick response when posters put an anti-independence viewpoint. But then I realised that all the anti-independence viewpoints I'd read today were about how Scotland couldn't manage on our own and how difficult things would be for us if we left.

Would an anti-independence supporter like to tell us a good reason why we should stay that isn't negative? Serious question.

Having Prince Edward to live in Holyrood Palace doesn't count

I feel I have said positive things. I feel have listed all the plus points to living in our present system from my point of view. Our children have no university debts as tuition is free. If our elderly need personal care it is not means tested it is available for all up to 4x per day visits, no car park charges at hospitals etc etc. In a crisis we are in a larger nation and able to negotiate more effectively. I don't want to give these positives up. Our present system gives us security and certainty which would not be the case if we went down the route of independence. You just need to see how hard a Brexit divorce for around 40 years (I haven't checked the exact number) association has been to negotiate. It would be unimaginable to see how a spilt could be done without huge damage and cost. I would like a safe, secure life for my GC and feel we need to stay as we are to achieve this.

DustyHen you really feel secure in Brexit Britain? I certainly don't.

The benefits you mention are due to the financial choices made by the Scottish Government.
That could all change at the whim of the UK government if it chooses to change how money is allocated to Scotland or, as seems quite likely, if it chooses to do away with the Scottish Government altogether.

If Scotland votes ‘yes’, Great Britain will become Little Britain.
?

FarNorth

DustyHen you really feel secure in Brexit Britain? I certainly don't.

The benefits you mention are due to the financial choices made by the Scottish Government.
That could all change at the whim of the UK government if it chooses to change how money is allocated to Scotland or, as seems quite likely, if it chooses to do away with the Scottish Government altogether.

I feel a lot less secure in Brexit Britain than before but one huge change is enough for a while. We need to see what that change will mean in the coming years.
I hardly think the UK government will attempt to alter the amount of money allocated as that would swing the mood here more towards independence.

Callistemon

^That'll be like the 'quiet majority' that were going to vote Trump back into power last November, then?^

Are you likening those who wish to remain as part of the UK to Trump supporters then, MaizieD?

Don't be daft.

I was just remembering the last time on this forum that the 'quiet majority' was cited. It was by someone who was quite sure that the 'quiet majority' would swing it for Trump in November.

They were wrong...

I was MaizieD! Can’t win ‘em all eh? Good job I didn’t place my money where my mouth is.
?

I feel very sad Dusty that you dont realise the things we have are due to devolution and if WM decides to close Holyrood down as is being hinted at,then we lose all the stuff we've worked hard to get
.There will be NO free uni in a Scotland taken back into the UK without devolution to work for us.If WM doesn't give the rUK these benfits theres not a cats chance in hell of us having them .
Devolution was hard won and voted for by a large majority of Scots ,please dont throw it away by voting for a unionist party . Neither Starmer or Boris has a shred of respect for us That will desrtoy decades of work by people like me ,I've been campaigning for firstly Devolution and now Independence since 1967 .It breaks my heart to think it can be so easily lost because some folk dont understand what Westminster will do to destroy it .
I'm out .

Dustyhen2010
I hardly think the UK government will attempt to alter the amount of money allocated as that would swing the mood here more towards independence.

They are already reducing the amount allocated to the Scottish NHS because it is calculated as a proportion of the funds given to the English NHS, and those are being reduced.
Many people will never realise that that is happening and will simply blame the Scottish Government for shortcomings in the Scottish NHS.

one huge change is enough for a while

Sometimes that might be a good thought - other times not.
For example, if the roof falls in - will I make the best of the new situation or will I take steps to change it?

FarNorth on a point of accuracy, health is devolved to the Scottish Government isn’t it, I know that’s the case in Wales?

It is included in the total allocation, and the proportion spent on health as opposed to other priorities is then decided by the Welsh Government.

DustyHen2010 I don't agree that the benefits around free tertiary education, free social care etc. are due to us being in the Union, I believe that they are a result of the priorities of the Scottish Government, acting on behalf of the people.

However I do think that for some people the prospect of the stability of staying in the Union is a good reason for rejecting independence, and I'll not argue with that. I think too that some people feel more British than Scottish, and who am I to argue with them?

In answer to that, and some of the points UG raised, I'm willing to give up that potential for stability for the chance to build our own country. The prospect of deciding on our own currency, and how our defence will work, and what our priorities should be, are more attractive to me that the status quo.

The Royal family will stay UG, no chance of a republic here. Yet

Anyway, I'm in a good mood. (Do not mention the rugby. Do not mention the rugby. )

The way I understand it Casdon is that the Barnett Consequentials are at least partly based on a proportion of the NHS England budget, so if that is cut then the Barnett Consequentials are. Scotland can spend its funding any way it chooses, but a reduction in the NHS England budget will lead to less overall funding being available for Scotland.

Yes, that’s what I understand too Alegrias1, it’s the same here, so as I read Dustyhen2010 statement, it wasn’t strictly true.

Oh go on Alegrias .... mention THE RUGBY‼️
It was well deserved according to Himself. They didn’t let England into the game (apparently).

Agreed Casdon.

No, you will not tempt me UG! ??????? ? ?

Sorry Casdon.
Yes, Alegrias1 has explained it better.

Lets not forget that the Act of Union came about because in 1707 Scotland was bankrupt. Maybe, if pushed too far, Boris will blow the dust off the dusty pages of the draft Alien Act.

that bankruptcywas engineered by England Kapitan maybe check facts before throwing silly comments in the ring .
Independence is NORMAL .

Not forgetting you chopped our Queens head off ...lol

Still waiting for your sources paddyanne. Incidentally, if Scotland wants independence I don’t see why they shouldn’t get it, if they get a big enough majority.
It’s difficult when when one vote showed they didn’t want independence, so another vote is called for. What happen if independence wins next time. Will that be claimed as the definitive vote or will the losing side call for a decider?

Jaberwok

Greenland, independence from Denmark, 1st May, 1979. Joined EU in 1973, withdrew in 1985 over fishing (!!) dispute.

Norway. Independence from Sweden gained in 1905.

Iceland , became an independent republic in 1944.

I think you'll find that these countries are closely aligned to the EU through being in the EEA. It is a status that was proposed for the UK but rejected as we wanted to be fully independent of the EU after Brexit.

So, I would reject your claim that they are "fully independent" in terms of what is being discussed here.

Not sure where Greenland fits in, but have heard it said that when the EU shouts "Jump!" Norway is the first to say "How high?" even though she does not have a say the making of EU rules.