Scottish independence, English me would like to understand

It has its downsides too, eg the relentless way in which the Welsh language is taking over.

Where is this Welsh language taking over, in Wales?

Callistemon

^Nationalism is very strong here, but it’s more about the culture than it is about politics.^
It has its downsides too, eg the relentless way in which the Welsh language is taking over. Whilst I agree it should never be left to wither away, I don't think it should be more prominent than the English language, to the detriment of such things as health for instance.

In fact, I don't think that is happening in Scotland, not yet anyway.

Wait

You think the welsh language in Wales Has taken over to the detriment of the English?

You can’t make this up!

I didn't make it up.
Where do you live Summerlove?

When we first had devolution and set up the Scottish parlaiment and Welsh assembly, there was no need to elect MSPs and MAs.

MPs could have attended the HoC three days a week to decide UK wide matters then attended the devolved assemblies for the other two days to determine devolved matters.

During these other two days the HoC could have, in effect have been an English parliament where MPs representing English constituencies determined policies affecting England.

In time the various regions of England may have clamoured for their own direct represtation and we might have moved towards a federal UK.

Apparently in a world I do not understand at all.

I’d like to look at each of Callistemon’s points in turn because its almost a masterclass in how the desire for independence is misunderstood by a lot of people.

If you are talking about English politicians, Alegrias then we have had many Scottish politicians who have been part of the United Kingdom Government, including Prime Ministers steering the ship for the whole country.
I was talking about a government and electorate that is completely over-represented by people who don’t have the Scots’ priorities at the top of their agenda. A parliament where we send MPs that are instantly in a minority irrespective of their political leanings. Being Scottish isn’t defining ourselves as “not-English”, although many people seem to see it that way and jump to those conclusions immediately....as you did Call

The problem with the SNP becoming so popular and prominent in Scottish politics is that this will not happen again
Maybe we’ve found the disadvantage for the rest of the UK if Scotland leaves the Union? A lack of good candidates for PM?

I can understand that, as the majority in Scotland voted to remain, they are unhappy with the result of the referendum.
Many people have been supportive of independence long before the EU referendum, but it certainly hasn’t done any harm in showing so many people how the much larger electorate south of the border, with different priorities and perceptions, can ride roughshod over the will of the majority of our citizens.

I don't want to see the Union split. I know quite a number of Scots and I don't know a single one who would have voted for an independent Scotland, but, of course, they are the ones who don't live there now. They have broadened their horizons, worked overseas or in the rest of the UK and see us as a whole, not as discrete parts.
So this is very interesting. I’ve lived in several parts of England, in France and in Australia. I also spent extended periods of time in many countries around the world through my work. So the suggestion that independence support is only for “little Scotlanders” with no idea how the outside world works is very wide of the mark there Call. Living abroad give me the perspective for how a truly internationalist, outward looking country could behave, and we came back to Scotland in the 2000’s just as the movement for the referendum was getting going. Perhaps your Scottish friends might decide to come back to a modern Scotland, as we did, and contribute something to the country? Then they might broaden their view of what its like to live here now.

I just don’t see what’s wrong with reviving a dying national language.

I find it laughable to say English needs to be much more prominent.

Bilingualism is a good thing for everyone, including tourism.

Callistemon I agree with you, the relentless pushing of the Welsh language is wearing, and in the South it is a forced introduction which the majority aren’t keen on - most Welsh born people can speak a bit of Welsh, but it’s isn’t going to become the first language however hard the Welsh nationalists push.
I was thinking more though of the huge pride in the culture, the Hiraeth if you will that exists. Proud to be Welsh runs through the whole nation, which is a joy I think.

Casdon

I don’t think any of the constituent parts of the UK are happy with the current political arrangements. In population terms, for example North West England is considerably bigger in population terms than any of the other nations, and they also feel they get a raw deal, as does the North East, Yorkshire, etc.

Scotland must choose its own path whatever that turns out to be, but there’s a very strong case for more devolved government for the regions of England as well.

I agree.

I tend to think that national borders are accidents of history, based on whose gang was the strongest and most bloodthirsty, but regardless of that, it is true that this tiny island is made up of four nations, for better or worse.

I very much feel that the UK is London-centric, and it really annoys me. There is far less investment in the regions than in London, and this is made worse when we are treated as inferior. As an example, there was a thread somewhere recently (I forget the name of the forum ) where it was universally assumed that southern accents were 'posh' and northern ones 'common'. This sort of attitude is wearing, as is the tendency for policies and financial support to favour London. There are many examples, but I'm thinking in particular of the recent refusal to give northern regions financial help when they were placed in Tier 4, but as soon as London was in the same situation money was found.

A similar case for devolution could be made for most of the regions, but in the end, we would all rely on one another. I do like the idea of regional mayors, who can speak up for their constituents (if that's what mayors have), and the likes of Andy Burnham do a great job.

I know a lot of Scots who have chosen to live in England, and many are my friends. I do find, however, that some seem to think it is acceptable to be rude about the English (even to English people in England), whereas the slightest negative comment about Scotland is met with fierce resistance. I couldn't care less where people are from, and treat everyone as I find them, but I would like to have the same tolerance shown to me.

In the end, it is for the home nations to decide if they want to leave the UK or not, but I would prefer us to stay together, partly because it would be a long and messy process to divide things up after such a long association, partly because we are small enough now that we have left Europe, and partly because their vote is rarely Tory, so they reduce the excesses of the right.

Also, however, I wouldn't like to see many good friends become 'foreign', and have to choose a nationality (even if they define as Scottish, Welsh or Irish now), and I don't want to be a foreigner in Scotland (or NI or Wales). Being British means that we can cross the border between the countries without ceremony. It would be a pain if (as in the borders between, say, Switzerland and France) people had to remember to have two currencies so that they can buy a coffee on both sides of the border.

Riverwalk

^It has its downsides too, eg the relentless way in which the Welsh language is taking over.^

Where is this Welsh language taking over, in Wales?

Riverwalk

Television adverts telling us to adhere to the rules re Covid are in Welsh. No English.

I sat in the surgery waiting room and a very elderly man came in, upset and flustered. He said he'd had to catch the bus to the surgery to ask for a repeat prescription for his wife because he tried to phone but it was all in Welsh.

A friend was forced to try to cancel her appointment for the vaccination yesterday; she spent hours on the phone but she said it was alternately opera music interspersed with Welsh. She didn't get through so a wasted appointment.

All road signs are in Welsh first then English in smaller letters at the bottom - potentially dangerous.

The majority speak English, it is the first language of this whole country but Welsh takes priority.

Welsh is spoken by 19% of the population in Wales as a whole, and in many areas you'll hear it used alongside English on the streets, in the shops and on the buses.

It will increase, of course, as it is a compulsory subject in schools, to the detriment if learning more useful languages such as Spanish, Mandarin etc.. It is of use only in Wales and no use elsewhere in the world except perhaps Patagonia.
Of course it should be preserved but not be dominant.

And although its been said several times on this thread already, please remember that voting for the SNP is not the same as supporting independence and supporting independence is not the same as voting SNP.

Achieving independence does not mean that Nicola Sturgeon becomes dictator for life.

beannachd leat

Summerlove
I just don’t see what’s wrong with reviving a dying national language.

Exactly the point I made too.

It should be encouraged, there must be many who want to learn it. Cornish too, Gaelic etc. All the old languages. I am absolutely in favour.

I had a struggle to find the English part of the many pages of my invitation to go for vaccination, hidden away amongst the Welsh.

I'll ask again - do you live in Wales, Summerlove?

Perhaps your Scottish friends might decide to come back to a modern Scotland, as we did, and contribute something to the country? Then they might broaden their view of what its like to live here now.

I can't speak for all of them, they are friends and acquaintances and there must be dozens!

I think they have broad views.

Emotionally, the shock would be profound. The integration of 300 years could not be sawn through without huge pain, on both sides. More than 800,000 people who were born in Scotland live in England, and close to 500,000 people born in England live in Scotland. For many of them, separation would force a potentially deeply painful reassessment of national belonging.

Nor would it necessarily stop there. For Northern Ireland, a UK shorn of Scotland would hardly make continued adherence to the union more attractive. The secession of Scotland would probably accelerate the already evident trend of increasing support for reunification.

That would leave England, with a truculent Wales in tow, reduced to its 17th century borders, a rump state off the north-west European continent, surrounded by the EU. What sort of country would that be? That is perhaps the biggest question of them all.

** Philip Rycroft was Permanent Secretary at the Department for Exiting the European Union. He is now a Consultant and Specialist Partner at Flint Global.

Thank you for your explanation Callistemon

Craftygranny, I am aware of the queen’s official title, I was making the point that many English people refer to her as queen of England as do most Americans and many Australians. Not very inclusive.

Callistemon

Summerlove
I just don’t see what’s wrong with reviving a dying national language.

Exactly the point I made too.

It should be encouraged, there must be many who want to learn it. Cornish too, Gaelic etc. All the old languages. I am absolutely in favour.

I had a struggle to find the English part of the many pages of my invitation to go for vaccination, hidden away amongst the Welsh.

I'll ask again - do you live in Wales, Summerlove?

Does it matter? I choose not to state where I live for internet security reasons

The issue here is bilingualism. I understand the issue of bilingualism. People with complaints like yours are usually the ones that agree that a small amount of second language is ok, but not enough to inconvenience them.

I find it interesting that in this case it’s a native language being revived, but the interloper language must still be dominant.

It’s sociologically fascinating.

Just because English isn’t first, you still found it didn’t you.

Imagine how it felt to the native welsh speakers having their language pushed out, to not see it or hear it and have to learn English.

lemongrove

I would like to add, that NS devoting so much time to her independence project at this particular time is a disgrace.
The Covid pandemic needs to be truly over first.

So much time?
What evidence is there, of that?

What about the time and energy on getting brexit done and coping with its results?

Many in Scotland believe that gaining Independence, even with following difficulties, will be worth it rather than be tied into brexit Britain with a UK government (of any party) disregarding Scotland.

Regarding Gaelic speaking in Scotland (Nicola Sturgeon can’t speak it either) I read a couple of weeks ago that out of 5 million people, approximately 50 - 60,000 folk can actually speak it. I think (?) it is mandatory in lessons there but just think - all the fluent ones would easily fit inside a football stadium within all of Scotland. A nice hobby. Melodious. But useful in the wider world? Sadly, no.

Jaberwok

I wouldn't think that there would be many if any disadvantages to the rest of the UK if Scotland left the union. Financially it could be an advantage. While I can understand Scotland wanting independence, after all I voted for it in 2016, I can't I understand wanting to join the EU, going from one perceived tyranny to another? Surely far better to have total independence like Iceland, Norway or Greenland?

You would think so, but apparently not.?
I don’t think there would be any disadvantages to the rest of the UK merlotgran just be a shame that a country that we have been strongly allied to for many hundreds of years and is part of the same island, should choose to break away.
I think in a year or so, when the situation regarding Brexit and Covid settles down, you won’t find as many clamouring for independence.

I think you’re missing the point Summerlove, Welsh people, in the South at least, do not see the need for the Welsh language to be the dominant language. There’s little opposition to it being taught in school, and it’s used for things like singing the national anthem, rugby songs, hello and goodbye etc.

It’s a big leap from that to it becoming the dominant language, and most Welsh people have no desire for that to happen, and many are annoyed about it being pushed. The use of Welsh as the first language at home is a key indicator of whether it is growing as a language, and there’s little evidence to suggest that is happening. Ultimately, the political will cannot force people to do what they don’t want to in this respect in the modern world. I picked up in the Welsh news last week that parents who had sent their children to Welsh speaking primary schools (which are often very good) were complaining because they can’t help them with their homework during lockdown.

I don’t know obviously, but imagine that there are similar feelings in Scotland and Ireland about Gaelic.

I always assumed that you were American Summerlove,
From something or other you once said. We do seem to have a few posters from across the pond nowadays, which is nice.

Gaelic hasn't been the majority language in Scotland for a long time (hundreds of years). Its definitely not mandatory in schools. Scots now....that's what most of us speak. Including Nicola, me and the entire cast of River City.

Callistemon I can definitely relate to your experience re the Welsh language. All of my children were forced to learn all of their subjects through the medium of Welsh, they are all quite successful partly because they had the balance of English spoken at home. Classmates who spoke only Welsh at home have been successful in Wales but unable to expand careers outside Wales. This is digressing from the thread though.
Some are saying that they can’t understand people who voted for Brexit being pro the union. Perhaps this is because we share an island, a common currency, a common language and I hope largely still have common values.

varian

When we first had devolution and set up the Scottish parlaiment and Welsh assembly, there was no need to elect MSPs and MAs.

MPs could have attended the HoC three days a week to decide UK wide matters then attended the devolved assemblies for the other two days to determine devolved matters.

During these other two days the HoC could have, in effect have been an English parliament where MPs representing English constituencies determined policies affecting England.

In time the various regions of England may have clamoured for their own direct represtation and we might have moved towards a federal UK.

Personally what Varian says has the most appeal to me. It would seem to be the most representative, the least costly and the least divisive.
BUT I do understand the current depth of feeling at being underrepresented.
I would like us to try an alternative and let the breaking up be a last resort.