Scottish independence, English me would like to understand

Bangs head against wall in disbelief...The GERS system was compiled by Iain Laing ..specofially to prove how Unviable Scotland was .It was in his remit to do so.The GERS figures show our "share" of all teh UK debts ..thats money we wouldn't be spending if we weren't IN the UK .things like Trident.80% of those polled want trident out of Scotland ,Then theres HS2 which will cost us billions despite it coming nowhere near Scotland .theres loads of this stuff .its all available to anyone who is interested in facts.Of course there are those who think because the "union" has been around for centuries that it has to stay ,I dont understand that ,especially from Scots .Would you stay in an abusive marriage for life just because your abusive partner doesn't want to let go ?
Look at the rhetoric of the union and you'll find its exactly like an abusive marriage .You'll never cope without ME .you'll have no money I'm not giving you mine.no one else will ever want you....just stay you're better of with me than starting again on your own ...etc etc etc.Of course its only 7 years since we heard it all before and hopefully MOST of us know that it means NOTHING .We stay they keep doing the same stuff.Stripping our assets .claiming all that is ours as theirs ..you know the sort of thing..they did the same with India .Look THAT up!!

lemongrove

I would like to add, that NS devoting so much time to her independence project at this particular time is a disgrace.
The Covid pandemic needs to be truly over first.

I would like to add, that BJ devoting so much time to his Brexit project at this particular time is a disgrace.
The Covid pandemic needs to be truly over first.

Petera. Exactly

Brexit is not a project ( although you already know that)?
Negotiating with the EU over a trade deal last year had to be done ( unless you would have preferred no deal).Unhappily it co-incided with a terrible year of Covid.
NS on the other hand could have refused to even mention a future referendum until Covid is over.
Still, those who admire her will do their best to defend.

varian

Surely no-one who has seen the disastrous consequenses of puting unnecessary borders between the UK and the EU, the huge explosion in bureaucracy, cost and delays, could ever ever contemplate putting up a border between Scotland and the rest of the UK????

Do the Lib Dems have any opinion on an English Parliament Varian? No need for boarders if we have a properly constituted Union.

The Creation of a Federal United Kingdom.

Federalism, and making decisions at the local level for local people, is at the heart of what we as liberals believe in. In September 2020 the Liberal Democrat Conference reaffirmed its commitment to a federal UK .

-https://www.libdems.org.uk/a20-federal-uk

Its quite laughable really that anybody thinks that one woman sits in an office somewhere in Edinburgh making ALL the plans for the pandemic response, and writing the WHOLE manifesto for a political party, thinking up ways to annoy the English, and working out how to brainwash the population into following her idea that she's just thought up out of thin air.

Don't let your political bias blind you to the fact the the First Minister of Scotland has put the pandemic response first on every occasion. Anybody, any political opponent or any press outlet who says different is playing politics and to most of us its quite transparent.

Sorry Alegrias but current emerging events around SNP are showing anything but their transparency. Read Craig Brown's sworn deposition. SNP in for a deservedly bumpy ride.

Its actually hard to believe that anyone can think that NS is focusing solely on the pandemic. Why produce the 11 point plan to independence and discuss an unofficial referendum at the same time as our vaccine roll out is so slow compared to the rest of the UK?

I like the concept of a 'United Kingdom' and I appreciate the benefits we've had as being a part of it. The jobs supported by the furlough scheme, the vaccine and the really excellent information from very senior scientific and medical staff.

Misreading the comments there Jane10. My comment was that she has put the pandemic response first, not that she's only doing that and nothing else. I just had a look at Johnson's twitter feed. Lots about the virus, also things about employing new policemen, climate change, and an upcoming visit to India. I'm not criticising this at all, the leaders of countries have a lot to think about. So trying to suggest that the SNP publishing a plan for independence is somehow unacceptable during a pandemic is just politicking. Nye Bevan came up with the NHS during a war. If he can do that, our politicians can certainly think of two things at once.

I've read Craig Brown's deposition. If the SNP have done something wrong they need to answer for it. I'm not deifying anybody. But I'm not demonising them either.

lemongrove

Brexit is not a project ( although you already know that)?
Negotiating with the EU over a trade deal last year had to be done ( unless you would have preferred no deal).Unhappily it co-incided with a terrible year of Covid.
NS on the other hand could have refused to even mention a future referendum until Covid is over.
Still, those who admire her will do their best to defend.

It didn't have to be done, the transition period could have been extended.

It's astonishing that the people who say this is not the time for constitutional change are, by-and-large, the same people who insisted on the largest constitutional change in recent history going ahead according their preferred timetable.

varian

The Creation of a Federal United Kingdom.

Federalism, and making decisions at the local level for local people, is at the heart of what we as liberals believe in. In September 2020 the Liberal Democrat Conference reaffirmed its commitment to a federal UK .

-https://www.libdems.org.uk/a20-federal-uk

Thanks Varian.

One more question. I know the Liberals decided to go for the "democrats" part of the SDP when they merged but I don't think that makes it clear what they are. Do you think they see themselves as Liberals who are generally defined as to the right of the old definition of Conservative or Social Liberals as they were in the early 1900s and generally taken to mean belief in a mixed economy with the government running public services and some regulation on private enterprise.

Having read a little on this it doesn't help that this centrist position is called different things in different countries but it would help if they shouted this from the roof tops if that's what they believe. I didn't know the bit you quoted above and I would have actually wanted to know. We do not have a declared party of mixed economy - or rather I haven't heard anyone say this is what they are. We all know the base of Labour is ownership of the means of production even though Blair did a good job in dragging them away from that and that the New Tories verge on libertarianism. Neither of those positions interest me (or many others I would guess) so there are many politically homeless people in this country.

I not attacking - just delving

I have never, in many years of party membership met a LibDem who would ever see themselves as to the right of the conservatives PippaZ. However there have been instances where we were on some policies to the left of the Labour Party which is in many ways conservative with a small "c". We do believe in having a mixed economy, but the ownership of companies should not be the main issue, rather what would best serve our communities.

Speaking personally, I joined the Liberals in the 1970s because we had moved to a part of the country where there were only two parties the Liberals and the Tories. The Labour Party hardly existed, although there was a time when our local Tory Councillor was so worried about being defeated by our Liberal candidate that she persuaded the postman (a very popular chap) to stand for Labour by telling him that his union would pay his costs, which they did. I am glad to say she was still beaten by the Liberal!

When the SDP was formed and we met the local members, I thought that they were just the same as us except that they had taken a bit longer to come to the same conclusion, that social democracy was preferable to the entrenched policies of the union dominated Labour Party. Because of the undemocratic FPTP system of elections, it is difficult enough for one centre left party to compete, let alone two and so merging was the best way forward. Although I have probably never at any time believed in every single party policy, I very much identified with leaders like Roy Jenkins, David Steel, Shirley Williams and Paddy Ashdown and I think in the present difficult circumstances, Ed Davey is doing a good job..

There is no need for anyone who believes in trying to build a fair society ever feeling politically homeless.

Unfortunately varian I do feel politically homeless at the moment because of the general push, from all parties except the Tories, for acceptance of self-identification of sex.

The law hasn't changed but self-identified sex is accepted by police, prisons, hospitals, schools etc etc, and many politicians do want it brought into law.

This issue is discussed a lot on Mumsnet FarNorth. I think it is very tricky and it might be worth starting a thread about it.

A lot of Scots probably still do not want independence, but Brexit has undoubtedly played into the SNP's hands, as Scotland had a small majority in favour of remaining in the EU.

Since the start of the SNP it has been the voice of those in Scotland who feel that Scotland has always had a raw deal since James VI inherited Elizabeth Tudor's throne and that it was made worse by the so-called union of the parliaments in 1707. which was in reality a dissolution of the Scots parliament.

Whether you feel one way or the other about it, Scotland should be able to survive as an independent country if she chooses to go that road, as the population is around 5.46 million.

In comparison Norway has 5,42 and Denmark 5.8 million of population.

It's what a population does that's important not just the number of them!

What do the populations of those countries do that the population of Scotland can't?

Just to be clear, grandetandeJE65, the majority in Scotland for staying in the EU was bigger than the UK majority for leaving, so if one was enough, I don't think you can describe the other as "small"!

The practicalities are going to make life difficult if they do get full independence, border and trade issues are going to be considerable. There could be agreements or some kind of federation although that’s pretty much where we are now, EU membership is not going to happen with UK out.

Personally I don’t care much either way, I expect they will still send us Whisky the only Scottish product I occasionally sample.

As one who lives in a whisky-producing area, I am delighted that you will still be able to enjoy it, Katie59, whatever happens. Slainte!

Katie59, surely you enjoy lovely wild Scottish salmon or fresh Scottish mussels which we had for lunch today as I couldn't get my usual supply of Anglesey mussels. Shortbread. You certainly cant beat Scottish raspberries and strawberries in the summer months and Aberdeen Angus beef has me slavering.
I'm not Scottish but just saying.

The EU wasn't even an issue in 2014. That referendum was 2 years later.
Alegrias the GDPs of Norway and Denmark is considerably higher than Scotland's. Why isn't Scotland's higher? We've had the same 'government' for 13+ years now. Why hasn't there been a sharp focus on the economy?
By far our biggest market is UK. Daft to put obstacles in the way of that.

LauraNorder Seed potatoes grown in Scotland's favourable conditions to start off the spuds in your supermarket are bought south of the border, and (until they became a casualty of the Brexit deal) in the EU. Scottish water from our surplus is pumped into English taps, and Scottish hydro-electric power into the UK grid. Those came into my mind immediately, but I am sure someone can think of others things.

Indeed Elegran.

Elegran does Scotland currently provide water to England, I couldn’t see any evidence, and I’d be interested to know?
I know Wales does, 133 billion litres a year are committed in the Welsh Water licence to provide for the needs of Birmingham. The reservoirs are near where I live.