The fear women live with

Alegrias1

Self defence doesn't work. Its a complete fallacy that learning a few defensive moves will protect you from a person with a weight advantage and the advantage of surprise, if they are really intent on something.

No doubt there are martial arts practitioners that could fight off an assailant but the suggestion that a quick slap will see someone off is a dangerous delusion. Fight back by all means, but don't think that self defence classes are the way out of this.

Exactly.

Also, it’s another way of victim blaming.

“Why didn’t she have self defense? She must have done it wrong. It worked for me!”

Katie59

From what I saw on news reports there was an element male and female who just wanted to confront the police and others who just wanted to party.
Pretty much what you get at any demonstration or large gathering so I understand why the police didn’t want it, hundreds decided to go anyway.

So again...it’s women’s faults

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Summerlove. I don’t understand your comment about “women’s faults” in response to Katie59 ‘s post. If only we could find common ground instead of looking for who is at fault. None of us are ever going to be perfect, so surely establishing positive ways forward instead of creating divisions is something to aim for.

It appears that my previous post has been withdrawn. I was merely drawing a comparison between the demonstrations that were allowed in May at the height of the first epidemic with police even taking a knee in support of BLM whilst the only knees genuflected in support of Sarah and women in general were lodged in the backs of young women.

- To ' susiewoozie I’m just fed up of having to repeat myself- '

give it a rest for a while then, why don't you. '

I agree. The police should have been showing respect and laying flowers rather than coming out in force and using force.

Impartialandeducated

It appears that my previous post has been withdrawn. I was merely drawing a comparison between the demonstrations that were allowed in May at the height of the first epidemic with police even taking a knee in support of BLM whilst the only knees genuflected in support of Sarah and women in general were lodged in the backs of young women.

You can’t let it go though can you?

I am a nurse working with children in care. In the world of safeguarding children we are only too aware of the abuse and violence prevalent in society.
I had a very happy working class childhood, we weren’t well off, but always well fed and clothed and had an annual holiday.
It wasn’t until I became an adult that I realised at least 3 of my close friends had been abused as children or were witness to domestic abuse and parents who were drinkers. These discussions with my (now adult) friends, combined with my experiences through my job helped me to understand how prevalent abuse of women and children is.
If anyone is interested there has been lots of work done recently around adverse childhood experiences (Google it, particularly a TED talk by Nadine Burke Harris), this helps to explain the lifelong impact of abuse in childhood. Whenever there is something in the news or media about a murder, rape, county lines, knife crime, domestic abuse etc, I always wonder what the perpetrators childhood was like, and usually that’s where the issue is.
I know there are many people who suffer abuse and neglect as children who don’t grow up to commit such crimes, but very often in these cases there are other protective factors like a trusted adult in the child’s life that helps them work through their difficulties.
A bit heavy for a Sunday night, but food for thought and something that may just resonate with some of you.
Take care ?

Bluebelle, what did you mean by But surely this is different what could this girl have done to Wayne Couzens to have made him so violent?

She didn't do anything to him, he just attacked her out of the blue, but even if she had said something to him out of fear, does that justify kidnap and murder?

Whitewave not sure what you mean. Is it that the police cannot simply let it pass just as they did last May on many nights in support of BLM. Do career criminals from anoyher continent merit more acknowkedgement than British women.

Thank you for posting that Pedwards.. I think the problem is with many people see the world in very black and white terms. They want the security and simplicity of someone being simply a goodie or a baddie . If we acknowledge as a society how much we let some of our children down and that some of them grow up into broken adults, it would mean assuming a societal responsibility rather than just writing off the broken adult as bad and not worthy of help or understanding. It would also mean accepting responsibility for providing better support to struggling families, better housing, benefits, child care and education. I think as a society less and less people want to do that and those of us who do are sneered at by many.,

B9exchange

Bluebelle, what did you mean by But surely this is different what could this girl have done to Wayne Couzens to have made him so violent?

She didn't do anything to him, he just attacked her out of the blue, but even if she had said something to him out of fear, does that justify kidnap and murder?

You shouldn’t be discussing this - it’s now subjudice. I’m sure you want a fair trial don’t you? You should ask HQ to delete it

It’s ok for crowds of people to gather in a pandemic and the police are supposed to look away. It was totally irresponsible.
Just what are the police supposed to do. Non of us can have even our family close but people that demonstrate are supposed to be free of the virus are they . The police are in trouble whatever they do, they do a difficult job trying to protect us according to the law. The courts should have banned the gathering. I am disgusted the way government and courts will not make these decisions and leave the police to get the flack. It is dreadful and shameful what happened to Sarah, but this hasn’t helped anyone.

AcornFairy

*Summerlove*. I don’t understand your comment about “women’s faults” in response to Katie59 ‘s post. If only we could find common ground instead of looking for who is at fault. None of us are ever going to be perfect, so surely establishing positive ways forward instead of creating divisions is something to aim for.

Boehr were told not to go and they went anyway.

implying that women who were hurt or hurt because they were told not to go and they did anyway.

Would be lovely to find common ground where women weren’t constantly blamed for men’s actions

Thank you Whitewavemark2 for starting this thread. It’s a huge subject where it’s easy to get sidetracked. So many good points have been made. I agree with those saying there is societal responsibility - how we raise children, understanding the potential effects of abuse , and recognising the impact of violence portrayed in the media and in films. My understanding ( people may disagree) is that biological differences in terms of instinct and testosterone, generally mean that males can be more aggressive and visually stimulated than females. This isn’t justifying sexual harassment or violence, but needs to be taken into consideration when trying to make progress with the issues. Legislation has improved to protect women but there is obviously a long way to go. It’s also important to state that it’s only some males who behave badly and not tar all with the same brush.

As I read on another platform.
'All women live under a curfew'

The law does not protect women. Longer sentences for defacing a statue than stalking. very low convictions for rape. Horrible case in the paper today about a women murdered by her ex, despite him having convictions for violence , magistrates released him on bail. Two days later she was murdered by him slashing her throat.

Sparkling... what are the police supposed to do? Well there are precedents during which police supported the demonstrators back in May. Police took the knee, entered into amicable banter, largely ignored the apparently therapeutic looting from shops. The pandemic threat level was actually greater at the earlier stage. So why not adopt a similar policy? Those women would have posed no threat in terms of the initiation of violence and the catharsis of smashing glass in order to misappropriate tekevisions and the like was rendered impossible by the nature of the venue. I suspect that british womens lives do not matter!

The difference in policing of the two events is astounding.

vegansrock I agree. The law does not protect women. Think I was trying to say that laws have improved a bit. We now have offences about stalking and coercive, controlling behaviour, and domestic violence is being given higher priority by the police. It’s not enough though, much more needs to be done. Discussions like this are so important to raise awareness and put public pressure on the system for change.

Apologies for my inability to post links. Marina Hyde’s article in today’s Guardian gives a clear report of her experience of sexual harassment yesterday. She was walking to pick up her son from primary school. The man followed her, used aggressive offensive language.
If every woman reported this kind of incident and it was logged as a hate crime - would that make any difference

vegansrock

The law does not protect women. Longer sentences for defacing a statue than stalking. very low convictions for rape. Horrible case in the paper today about a women murdered by her ex, despite him having convictions for violence , magistrates released him on bail. Two days later she was murdered by him slashing her throat.

Sadly it’s worse than that - longer sentences for defacing a statue than for rape. That puts us in our box doesn’t it ?

The certainty of being caught is a vastly more powerful deterrent than the punishment.

Research shows clearly that the chance of being caught is a vastly more effective deterrent than even draconian punishment.

nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/five-things-about-deterrence

The Tory party and their supporters in the press love to talk about longer prison sentences when they should really be addressing the scandalously low conviction rate for attacks on women.

varian

The certainty of being caught is a vastly more powerful deterrent than the punishment.

Research shows clearly that the chance of being caught is a vastly more effective deterrent than even draconian punishment.

nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/five-things-about-deterrence

The Tory party and their supporters in the press love to talk about longer prison sentences when they should really be addressing the scandalously low conviction rate for attacks on women.

Exactly - people who commit all types of violence against women can rely on one or more of the following
The offence not being reported
The offence not being investigated/ recorded
The offender not being caught
The offender not being prosecuted