Scottish Election 6 weeks away.

Thank you Gossamerbeynon1945

In all seriousness, I might get called touchy, but I think this is part of the problem. We are seen as something separate and treated as the poor relation - often there is an undertone of just being told to suck it up. And it gets wearing.

But I appreciate now that you didn't mean that.

Gossamerbeynon1945
Not giving it to them is like trying to keep a cheating husband in a marriage, who really wants to leave.

It's more like an abusive partner forcing their wife/husband to stay by convincing them they'll never manage on their own.

Gossamerbeynon1945

The only thing worse than not getting what you want , is getting it. They (Scotland) should have a second referendum, because they want to leave theUK.

Not giving it to them is like trying to keep a cheating husband in a marriage, who really wants to leave.
Just my opinion.

Who are "they"? If "she" is the cat's mother, are "they" the rest of the cat's family? The inhabitants of Scotland are not an identical cohort of red-haired kilted teuchters eating nothing but porridge and haggis, washed down with usquebae, and eaten standing up in the wee but'n'ben halfway up Ben Nevis, before sheep-shearing and caber practice.

They are a disparate bunch. There are people living in remote islands, people in busy industrial towns, leafy suburbs, small towns, farming villages, (ex)mining areas, (ex)thriving fishing communities, working on oil rigs, in financial centres, in factories making all kinds of goods, in supermarkets and corner shops, herding sheep, growing organic vegetables, farming alpacas and buffalo, nursing the sick, cutting hair, teaching children, volunteering in charity shops.

They each have an opinion on independence. They don't all have the same view of the future, but they have a righht to express that opinion, and vote on it if the opportunity arises. Much like all youse English and Welsh folk, actually. You had the chance to vote on Brexit. A lot of people wanted to leave. The vote went their way, so we left - all of us, even those who would rather have stayed.

It took me too long to type that, so the discussion has moved on a bit, but I concur with Alegrias that the Scots are not some alien species who want something strange. They are a mixture of individuals just as are all nations, and don't deserve to be patronised and vilified for wanting to plan their future - whether it is within the Uk or outside it.

Elegran, I have already apologised, but if you want me to do it again, I apologise, I didn't mean to be insulting.

By the way, I am Welsh and I can see that Wales will be asking for independence in the future

It’s clear that there’s been a degree of COVID voting going on in all three nations, so people who think their incumbent leaders handled COVID well have given them their votes. What interests me about the Scottish position is how much of the SNP vote is directly related to a wish for independence and how much of it is that they think the pandemic has been handled well, and also there isn’t another viable choice of party that people can live with at the moment.

There’s definitely a political mandate for an independence vote in my opinion, but from what I’ve seen, I’m less convinced as to whether people will vote for it or not when the crunch comes - and if they do or don’t, as it’s likely to be a fine margin, how it can the consequences be reconciled within Scotland itself?

Gossamerbeynon1945, Yes, I saw your apology, and thank you. My ranting post took so long to type that it crossed with it (I type slowly), so must like a further moan, but it it isn't!

Elegran - glad we're friends!

My grandson (aged 18) has joined Yes Cymru which apparently is a non political group pushing for independence

Casdon I agree. I know quite a lot of people who say that they are not interested in independence, but voted for the party or leader who seemed most relevant to Scotland. When/if the next referendum takes place, votes may go against it (or not - it could go either way)

In any case, under Nicola Sturgeon, the referendum will probably take second place to financial and social recovery. There is no point in striking out independently when the country is still reeling from the multiple blows to health and economy from CoVid. The media, of course, would rather the political soap opera keeps momentum with a new conflict!

This is ridiculously hypothetical but - if I were living in Scotland and a Unionist, I’d want a referendum - firstly because it’s democracy and secondly so I could make my position clear without having No 10 speaking for me. Would there be others who felt that way ?

I would want a referendum too, then everyone knows where they stand.

I’d agree with you suziewoosie, it’s totally up to the voting population of Scotland to decide what they want to do. It would be great if there was a very high turnout at the poll, and a decisive result one way or another so there’s a clear direction for the country to follow.

So why is Johnson so frit ?

susiewoozie - I think he's afraid of an avalanche of countries and areas of the UK wanting independence

I want another referendum (surprise!) but we'll only get one more chance at it and there has to be a decisive majority - 51%/49% won't hack it, either way, just as Casdon has said. That's why I'd rather concentrate on getting the country in a good state and showing that we can run our own affairs before the people are asked again.

I think Sturgeon thinks that way too but there is an extreme part of the independence movement that would declare UDI tomorrow if they could, and that would be a disaster. So she has to balance it.

Turnout at the last referendum was 86% or so, so people were engaged then. The turnout at this latest election was up about 10% on the last time, which is encouraging.

I loved the rant Elegran. I am, however, a teuchter ? ?

Just saw on Sky news that Nicola Sturgeon is playing down the call for a referendum at the moment ( I suppose until Covid is sorted)

I expect that we will see a lot of commentary on the media on how Sturgeon is rolling back the demand for a referendum until Covid is sorted, so I think its worth posting this extract from the SNP manifesto. There has never been any desire to have a referendum in the immediate future, although the Unionist parties will try to make us believe that was the plan.

Can I ask if those in favour are in favour of referendums generally. I have very mixed feelings about referendums. I support the right for independence completely but just wonder about peoples feelings about referendums as a democratic tool.

I don't know enough about referendums to comment. Do you think referenda is a fair method?

That's a really interesting question Galaxy. We do seem to be in a situation where the only way to decide on this is via a referendum. DH did comment the other day that the Union was a voluntary one in Scotland and so we could just leave the Union any time we like. I'm not sure that would work very well!

What would be the alternative to a referendum?

I was in favour of a referendum, but like many others, I wasn’t happy with the outcome. Having a referendum only seems to make sense if everyone agrees to go with the result.
Alegrias1 I think you’re right about needing a more decisive result. There may have been over a million difference, but 49%/51% doesn’t look convincing if I’m on the losing side.

I dont know. There is something about them that makes me uneasy. What if there was a referendum on gay marriage and people voted against, what if the referendum on abortion had gone the other way, peoples right to live their life would be decided by other people. I dont know there is just something that worries me.

I think that referendums with 50% cut off just cause more problems than they're worth. For serious issues involving constitutional change it should be at least 60% or even more as it is in other countries.
Actually, I'd quite like to just hold this referendum right now so as to cut the uncertainty that will hover over the economy and impede recovery. I say this as I know of businesses who are holding back on further investment in Scotland until they see whether they would be better moving to England.

An organisation wishing to change its constitution usually sets a much higher bar than 50% when they ask at an AGM (or at a Special General Meeting called just to decide the change) for votes for and against. In fact, the level needed is usually stated in the original constitution. A country is a bigger unit than a charity or other organisation, and the effects of a change a lot more far-reaching.

Galaxy yes it is an interesting question. Here’s my broad brush thoughts . Representative democracies should use referendum sparingly and for matters only of far reaching constitutional import - as we have done. Because we haven’t got a formal constitution, there are not the clear rules laid down as to what counts as a constitutional change whereas some countries it is enshrined in constitutional law. So for example, Ireland had to have a referendum to change the law on abortion and if irc on divorce.
I think in countries where referendum are held a two thirds majority is quite a common threshold. I also think some countries have legal conditions as to how long there must be between referendum on the same issue. Both these conditions should apply and it’s the discredit of our political system that they don’t.
I would hate for matters like abortion, divorce, gay rights etc to be subject to referendum. What has usually happened with matters like this is that they are brought in via a Private Members Bill with a free vote but with the government of tge day promising parliamentary time ( without which no PMB stands as earthly)
My final point after the appalling breaking of election law, foreign interference and expenditure in the Brexit referendum, we need some really tough new laws to make this aspect of referendum truly democratic.