How do we stop boys who become drunk being labelled as sex predators?

Yes I think I would argue for outsiders delivering the formal lessons but I cant really put my finger on why I feel that, and I am not a teacher.

The majority of sexual abuse occurs in families. The perpetrators are usually men. If women are involved, it’s usually in partnership with a man. Girls who are abused, often have one perpetrator, a man. Their abuse tends to start earlier, around age 5. Boys are often 6 plus and more likely to have multiple perpetrators.
Some of these children will act out sexually in adolescence. That may lead to their own abuse experience being made known.

I’m puzzled why some need to constantly bring this kind of discussion to the role of females either as being responsible for their victimisation, or because yes, some females behave abusively. None of this explains why the vast majority of violent and/or sexual abuse is carried out by males

For those interested in abuse perpetrated by females, here's a link to a 2017 article www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/
And here's why it is a feminist issue and ignoring it reinforces the patriachy and patriarchal values.(from the article)
For example, the common one-dimensional portrayal of women as harmless victims reinforces outdated gender stereotypes. This keeps us from seeing women as complex human beings, able to wield power, even in misguided or violent ways. And, the assumption that men are always perpetrators and never victims reinforces unhealthy ideas about men and their supposed invincibility. These hyper-masculine ideals can reinforce aggressive male attitudes and, at the same time, callously stereotype male victims of sexual abuse as “failed men.”
So pretend it is all the fault of men if you wish but by doing so you harm everyone.

Whereas your approach is creating an environment where no one can talk about what happens to them.
As I have said I will preface every discussion of this issue with not all men if it helps you.
No one on this thread has called victims of abuse failed men. But people on this thread have implied that girls who experience this are responsible if they are drunk.

Trisher you started a thread on perpetrators who were boys and are now upset because the focus wasnt on females who abuse. Its quite confusing.

For those who think the world is just the way it always was I suggest you listen to an interview Nihal Arthanayake did with Julia Ebner on her book "Going Dark: The Secret Social Lives of Extremists. The chapter that shocked him most was the one on Trad Wives - because he knew so little about it and, I have to admit, I was also shocked and shocked to realise how little I knew.

One of the groups that are mentioned is Incels. Standing for Involuntary Celibate, this group believes women owe them sex. Yes, they come over as ridiculous but their view of the world trickles down and one of them killed 10 people and injured 15 in a hate-filled attack. We need to know and understand what goes on in the meetings of people like this - often on the Dark Web which a 15-year-old student probably has more chance of finding than we do.

I had heard of Trad Wives - although not by that name but attached to this thinking are groups of female misogynists who blame women for all the ills often created by society but often by men. This group also seems to be attached, at times, to White Supremacists too - which didn't come as a surprise.

For those who care to find out more, the Arthanayake interview is here go to 1:03

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/25/raw-hatred-why-incel-movement-targets-terrorises-women

Galaxy threads drift and subjects are raised. If there is then some questioning of the assertions made I think it is only fair to post information relating to that subject. Personally I think it's a learning process, but if you're not interested that's up to you.
PippaZ the concepts of Incels are horrifying, they are I would think more linked to traditional views of masculinity and the more those are challenged the better.

I'm not sure about sex and relationships education in schools I think one of the problems is that like drug education teachers must approach it from a perspective of what is illegal and the consequences. The problem is that teenagers are questioning, rebelling against, and actively ignoring many of those rules already. It means the warnings are sometimes just ignored. In many cases the best drug education has been given by organisations with specific expertise often involving ex-users. This obviously isn't possible with sex offenders.

Galaxy I have never said no one should talk about what happened to them. I have suggested posting it on the internet may not be helpful. There is a difference.

So pretend it is all the fault of men if you wish but by doing so you harm everyone.

I will remember the next time a woman says she was assaulted to ask what she did to encourage it then. Or why didn’t she stop it. I’ll make sure she knows she owns half the blame.

i have now read ten pages and still cannot get the point of what the OP is asserting.

But posting it on the internet is how most people operate these days. I found the threads on MN describing womens experiences very moving for example.
The most effective training I received on drugs was from a drug user (but I was an adult) before he started the training he asked us all to hand our cigarettes to him (it was the 80's and nearly everyone at that workplace smoked) there were some very twitchy people in the audience by the end.
I think there are very complex issues about the teaching of consent, the dangers of porn etc etc to teenagers.

welbeck

i have now read ten pages and still cannot get the point of what the OP is asserting.

I wasn't "asserting"anything. I was opening a debate about something which it seems to me is a complex issue.

Summerlove If you can post one sentence of mine that says women are never assaulted I will apologise. Of course they are. But sometimes the lines are blurred and when children or young people are involved it would seem to me to be a subject worthy of real discussion and not just an opportunity for dissing another poster.

Excellent posts Trisher! ?

Please google the statistics on female rape in prisons if you are going to use that as an example of 'female' on female rape

JaneJudge

Please google the statistics on female rape in prisons if you are going to use that as an example of 'female' on female rape

I take it you mean the only women raped in prison are raped by trans women with penises or male prison guards?

but the title seems to be deliberately provocative, or goady as they say on MN.
if i said,
how do we stop people over the limit being labelled as drunk drivers,
the obvious answer is to stop them from driving when drunk.
but you seem to be suggesting, by analogy, that it is unfair to label them as criminals because they had been drinking at the time of the offence.
it seems circular to me.
then you seem to want to try the intricacies of the imagined case, as if saying, well the driver only ordered soft drinks, he didn't know he was over the limit.
we could do this with any scenario.
the age of criminal responsibility in England is ten. if a case is proved against a boy aged over ten, he cannot evade liability by saying he was drunk at the time. that would be a charter for drunken criminality.
a conviction depends on the matter being proved. if it cannot be proved, then he will not be convicted.
are you suggesting large-scale miscarriage of justice, where boys are routinely convicted on flimsy evidence.
because the stats do not support that. quite the contrary.

trisher

Summerlove If you can post one sentence of mine that says women are never assaulted I will apologise. Of course they are. But sometimes the lines are blurred and when children or young people are involved it would seem to me to be a subject worthy of real discussion and not just an opportunity for dissing another poster.

I’m not dissing you.

I’m trying to find out why you think women are to blame for being assaulted.

I haven’t said it doesn’t happen. Just that they own some blame.

Which I disagree with.

No one is at fault for being assaulted.

Those who do the assaulting are assaulters. No matter how much you want to give them a pass

Peasblossom

I don’t know how to do link, sorry. Or how people extract bits to post. That’s why I had to type it.

But it will come up in Google if you put in the Annual Congress etc.

I’m still looking for this Peasblossom - I just can’t find it anywhere.
If you were able to copy it and paste it into your text I’d be grateful.
Thank you.

I’ve tried putting the conference details in my search and so far haven’t found the paper you mentioned. Lots of other stuff though! Typical.

If you can’t copy and paste it, could you type it out do you think?
Many thanks.

wellbeck actually the age for drinking in the UK is not 10. So if a child has consumed alcohol you might perhaps want to know who supplied it, and why the adults responsible for that child's care didn't stop them consumng it. So your drunk driving analogy is completely irrelevant.
It seems to me that there is a lot of dismissing of real concerns by posting things like "assault is assault" which isn't actually being contested. What is being contested is the recalling of events by someone who was so drunk they passed out, which condemns another unnamed person, who might also have been drunk, to being condemned as guilty of assault. I have no doubt the girls posting believe they were assaulted, but is belief in those circumstances enough?
It's been stated that boys are always responsible even if they are drunk, but it seems girls aren't, which is about as close to a reversal of the traditional double standards about such behaviour as you can possibly get.
And there are very few people on this thread who have entered into a discussion about that.

If a girl assaults a boy then they are responsible. But according to your theory they wouldnt be if the boy was drunk.

trisha, I think Welbek actually said the age of criminal responsibility in England is ten.

Summerlove I don't think women are to blame for being assaulted. I do think there is a blurred line between the events that happen between a teenage boy and girl when they are both drunk. I think people who are drunk sometimes behave out of character, take risks, lose their inhibitions and even have memory loss. And I wonder why it is boys who are drunk must remain in control but girls dont have to?

all girls, drunk or sober are victims, no girl gives a boy the ‘come on’ , any boy who make a pass at a girl is a ‘sexual predator’,