How do we stop boys who become drunk being labelled as sex predators?

trisher. In my mind there is a very clear difference between wandering hands and groping. In my youth, some chap might run his hands down my back fully clothed or waist, or even towatds my breasts, a brush off and that was the end of it. I would define that as wandering hands and it could also be the preliminary to some very pleasant and consensual pleasure all round.

There were others, who were predatory, persistant and determined on getting their hands on your breasts or around your groin or more and who tried to overcome your immediate opposition by force. That is groping and is deeply unpleasnt and a sexual assault.

Whether you use the words wandering hands or groping, the issue is the context. Both are equally unacceptable if not invited - if you’re in a willing embrace, then fine but if not, neither is acceptable. I’m not sure though that in a willing embrace, you’d call it groping would you?

M0nica that's fine but is it not posible that what commences as consensual pleasure becomes at some point unacceptable, now if both are sober that will be easily communicated, but if both are drunk? Have you ever tried to tell a drunk person something?
I think Peasblossom is quite right. By surrendering responsibility and thinking the boy is solely responsible we are simply perpetuating the patriachy and the myth that women need men's protection because they can't be responsible.

How would they be responsible. How would they stop a boy who is stronger than them fir example.

Girls or women taking responsibility for boys/men behaviour sounds fairly patriarchal to me.

Galaxy

Girls or women taking responsibility for boys/men behaviour sounds fairly patriarchal to me.

Does it ever.

Women should never drink, so they can be more able to tell a drunk man no.

I despair.

All different ways of blaming women

I get drunk. He gets drunk. We have sex. In the morning I think “Oh no I was drunk. I wouldn’t have had sex if I was sober”

He also thinks “Oh no I was drunk. I wouldn’t have had sex if I’d been sober”.

But apparently the responsibility is all his. Not mine. Because everyone knows we have to rely on men to stop us making silly decision

I don't think anyone has said women should never drink. What has been said is if they do they should realise their judgement will be affected and they may become involved in activities they later regret. That doesn't mean that there are not instances where women are assaulted. It does mean that the boundaries may be blurred by the alcohol and both of the people involved should realise that.

Summerlove

Galaxy

Girls or women taking responsibility for boys/men behaviour sounds fairly patriarchal to me.

Does it ever.

Women should never drink, so they can be more able to tell a drunk man no.

I despair.

All different ways of blaming women

‘Wandering hands’?! The level of minimisation and blaming girls going on here is staggering.

But that's not what we are talking about here. I have regretted a drunken encounter but I wasnt assaulted. It's a different thing.

peaseblossom - in your hypothetical scenario - could the girl be accused of raping the man? - no even if both are drunk the man does have to actively engage in sex, whereas the girl could be unconscious, ( I don’t believe an unconscious man is capable of sexual intercourse). Therein lies the difference. So many women trying to excuse men here.

vegansrock how many times does it have to be said? We are not talking about a boy having intercourse with an unconscious girl, which is of course rape. But of events where there is some sexual contact, when both of those involved have been drinking.

It would be interesting to hear some male responses to the OP. Would they have a different point of view, especially with regard to their own daughters and sons?

A male has a penis, a penis can be used to sexually assault a female in an act of the utmost violation, maybe impregnate a female. The male has to learn he therefore has the greater responsibility.

I am so sad that, while the reports of boys behaviour in schools and universities are all across the news we are going round and round about what happens if two people have been drinking. We all have responsibilities and it is up to both parents and schools to ensure that children and young people are aware of this.

Firstly, under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 a child under 13 years old is held not to be able to consent to sexual activity even if she expressed consent or believes that she is able to decide whether or not to consent to sexual activity. And yes, some of the children coming forward were under 13 at the time.

A person who is between the ages of 13 and 16 has the capacity or ability to consent to sexual activity but it is against the law for her or him to do so. And again, yes, some of the young people coming forward were under the age of 16.

Having the freedom to choose means being able to exercise real choice about whether to engage in sexual activity or not. Threats or peer pressure take away that "real choice".

Having the capacity to choose refers to the ability a person has to make a particular choice. The fact that a woman has voluntarily consumed alcohol or another substance may affect her capacity to consent to sexual activity. For an offence to have been committed the defendant must not have reasonably believed that the complainant consented to the sexual activity. Whether the defendant’s belief in the complainant’s consent is reasonable or not is determined by looking at all the circumstances of the case. This includes any steps that the defendant took to find out whether the complainant was consenting (such as asking her).

The SOA 2003 outlines certain situations where, in law, it will be harder or impossible for the defendant to argue that the complainant consented to the activity and that the defendant reasonably believed that she consented. These include where the defendant deceives the complainant as to his identity or gives her a substance without her knowledge or consent that has the effect of overpowering her.

Sexual assault was one of the new offences created by the SOA 2003. Under section 3(1) SOA 2003 a defendant is guilty of sexual assault if:
*he intentionally touches the complainant;
*the touching is sexual;
*the complainant did not consent to the touching; and
*the defendant did not reasonably believe that the complainant consented.

Touching can be done with a part of the body, such as the defendant’s hand, or with an object. Touching can also be done through clothes. Touching includes penetration; so a defendant who kissed a woman without her consent using his tongue may have committed a sexual assault.

Under section 78 SOA 2003 touching or any other activity is “sexual” if a reasonable person would think that:
*the act is sexual by its nature; or
*the act may be sexual and because of the circumstances in which it occurred or the purpose the defendant has, or both, it is sexual.

Sexual intercourse is an act that is sexual by its very nature. However, if the touching is not sexual by its nature, for example, touching a part of someone’s body through clothes, whether it is considered to be sexual or not will depend on:
*the circumstances of the touching (for example, where the touching occurred, what was touched and with what); and/or
*the defendant’s purpose.

I will stop there but this just shows why these things must be taught in schools.

I've only read a few replies but I get the feeling many of you have not looked at the website. The examples given are nothing like the things we may have experienced at school. It's a whole different thing now and I'm relieved not to be in that situation.
The only thing I remember at school was in 6th form. About 10 or 12 of us had free periods and were sent to an unsupervised room. The boys picked 3 girls and put them under the table and kicked them. The other girls weren't touched at all and nothing sexual was done.
Have a look at the website.

I think women have been conditioned not to speak up in the past.Dont really know why. A few years ago ,I was probably late 40s early 50s my husband and his female cousin and I went to a party at his friends house. Nobody was overly drunk and the friend decided to walk us all home.He put his arms round me and the cousin and soon had his hand inside my bra.When we got home the cousin was very annoyed and of course she had suffered the same groping. My husband wouldn't believe a word of it and told us it must have been an accidental slip! He said his friend would be mortified that we thought it was intentional.
I now wonder why neither of us gave him a slap or spoke up.

Women didn’t speak up because they feared they would not be believed (not an unreasonable fear, to go by some responses here on GN) and/or because they feared they’d be shamed or ridiculed. In India just today a young woman who complained that she had been raped has undergone a terrible ordeal at the hands of her rapist and her own male family members as punishment for speaking out. That’s far along the spectrum but it’s the same line.

I just watched the documentary on channel4 about Max Clifford- horrible man who thought he could get away with anything and he did for a long time. Lots of the young women who eventually came forward said they couldn’t say anything at the times as nobody would believe them , plus he threatened them . Women have been taught to be passive for a long time.

kircubbin2000

I think women have been conditioned not to speak up in the past.Dont really know why. A few years ago ,I was probably late 40s early 50s my husband and his female cousin and I went to a party at his friends house. Nobody was overly drunk and the friend decided to walk us all home.He put his arms round me and the cousin and soon had his hand inside my bra.When we got home the cousin was very annoyed and of course she had suffered the same groping. My husband wouldn't believe a word of it and told us it must have been an accidental slip! He said his friend would be mortified that we thought it was intentional.
I now wonder why neither of us gave him a slap or spoke up.

How utterly awful - that you somehow thought you had to tolerate his behaviour but worse really your husband not believing you. I just can’t get my head round that - you deserve better, you’re a person worthy of respect and being believed - did you stay with him? If a husband hasn’t got your back, then who has? Your post is so sad.

Trisher, drunks respond to a good hard push.

Kirkcubbin why didn't you just break free from this obnoxious male as soon as his hands started wandering and say you would rather walk without someone holding you. It is an innoxious remark and the worst that could have happened is that you have been told you were being unfriendly.

Like others I felt a slight embarrassment about saying things when men got freah, but pushing a hand away, walking away, freeing myself from someone's clutches before anything goes too far doesn't require words. The worse that happens is verbal abuse, and I could live with that.

M0nica It's very hard to push anyone if you are also drunk.
And be careful you are going to be accused of victim blaming.

PippaZ Thanks for the legal lesson. So would you say that under the terms of the legislation a drunk 14 year old boy could claim that he reasonably believed the complainant consented? The issue of him supplying her with any substance is I think largely irrelevant most alcohol seems to be consumed voluntarily by both parties.

PippaZ I notice that in you legal post you always refer to the defendant as male and the accuser as female. Can I ask if the Act is framed in this way?

Or does it allow for the accuser to be male and the defendant female?

Peasblossom

PippaZ I notice that in you legal post you always refer to the defendant as male and the accuser as female. Can I ask if the Act is framed in this way?

Or does it allow for the accuser to be male and the defendant female?

The Act actually uses ‘he’ whenever the sex of the person is actually mentioned, otherwise it says ‘the person’. I think almist all legislation uses ‘he’. Something to do with being a patriarchal society.

And the fact that the vast majority of sexual assaults are performed by males, though you wouldn’t think so by the tone of some of the answers on here.